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Most intriguing part of the story is the new ability of governments to call each other out, the deterioration of diplomatic tone and language whereby nation sta

Most intriguing part of the story is the new ability of governments to call each other out, the deterioration of diplomatic tone and language whereby nation states would never explicitly attack each other verbally. Since the the controversy with Iran, foes have been more like five year olds in their criticism for each other. I'm sure everyone is aware of the mutually assured destruction brought forth by conflict (no one really wants a war), but none of these leaders are willing to back down at any cost.

mehrdadn 6y ago
I'm not sure openly calling out other countries like this is really new. See for instance [1]: > By 1987, the Soviets began to sour on the campaign as Moscow’s scientific establishment rebuked it. Secretary of State George P. Shultz also accused Mikhail S. Gorbachev, who was then the leader of the Soviet Union, with hawking “bum dope about AIDS.” Mr. Gorbachev ordered the K.G.B. to stop spreading the conspiracy theory and after the collapse of the bloc, former Soviet intelligence officials owned up to it. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/us/politics/russian-disinformation-aids-fake-news.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/us/politics/russian-disin...
- meowface 6y ago
  >hawking bum dope about AIDS Odd turn of phrase.
  - aspenmayer 6y ago
    They are referring to Operation Denver, a KGB plot to sow misinformation suggesting that AIDS was a US government conspiracy as early as 1983. https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/operation-denver-kgb-aids-disinformation-campaign/ https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/operation-denver-kgb-aids...
    - meowface 6y ago
      Oh, I know, I just thought it was funny to refer to disinformation as "hawking bum dope". (Though this is a merging of the NYT's word and the quote.) Not really something anyone would say in modern American English.
- DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
  Ironic that nowadays the US government is the one promoting conspiracy theories about a pandemic. Even the theory is almost exactly the same: that the virus comes from a lab.
  - kspacewalk2 6y ago
    You're taking about the assertion that the virus spread from an accidental contamination at a lab in Wuhan. It is crossing into conspiracy theory territory to believe the assertion without proof. However, the theory itself is completely reasonable and sound. This is an unproven claim; a conspiracy theory is something different.
    - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
      The theory is just as "reasonable" as the Soviet misinformation about HIV was. That is, not at all. It's a wildly implausible assertion that there's no evidence for. People outside of labs are exposed to bat coronaviruses all the time. The chances that one of a very small number of highly trained researchers working according to strict protocols was patient zero - as opposed to the millions of regular people who come into contact with bat coronaviruses with absolutely no protection or training - is minuscule. Just like the Soviet misinformation in the 1980s, the theory can't be disproven right now, in exactly the same way that any other malicious accusation made with zero evidence can't be disproven. The Trump administration is acting extremely recklessly by spreading this unsupported conspiracy theory.
      - dependenttypes 6y ago
        > implausible Explain the previous sars releases then.
        DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
        SARS spilled over naturally, not from a lab. After it spilled over naturally, it became the subject of intense study, sometimes in labs with poor procedures. Huge amounts of SARS-CoV were being cultured by people with little training. That's an entirely different circumstance from now. The lab where they study coronaviruses in Wuhan operates at a much higher standard than poorly run Chinese labs in 2004. The lab in Wuhan wasn't even conceived back then. It's essentially proven that SARS-CoV-2 was not under study before the outbreak, because the it's not in any of the standard databases where all known coronaviruses are published. But even disregarding that, the idea that huge quantities of a virus that nobody has ever heard of would be cultured is implausible.
082349872349872 6y ago
In 1987, they weren't on twitter, like the US and the Taliban exchanging agreement barbs recently. (unlike in certain quarters, I think these twitter presences have allowed some grievance airing which has actually helped the peace) Maybe we can get them all to settle their differences with a dance-off on TikTok?
- creaghpatr 6y ago
  We've already got embassies sniping memes on Twitter, TikTok 'battles' doesn't seem like such an unreasonable development.
mtgx 6y ago
It's one of the main reasons why having an authoritarian lead your country is a bad thing. Things can much more easily escalate to war just because their personal feelings were hurt and won't admit to their mistakes.
nocturnial 6y ago
They always called each other out, but this was usually done privately, not publically. If it's done publically, it's usually not a message to a foreign entity but rather a message targeted for domestic consumption. The NSA got a bad reputation with the release of the Snowden files and I guess what we're seeing today is the result of that. Hiring talented people got more difficult for them. So they are releasing ghidra and doing PR stunts like this one to convince potential employees that the NSA isn't that bad. I'm not making a judgement of what the NSA did or does is bad or what Snowden did was good or bad. Not even whether this PR move was warranted to show they are doing positive things. All I'm saying it's a PR move.
vsareto 6y ago
MAD is for nukes, there's not mutually assured destruction in many conflicts going on today. Least of all for nations hacking one another. This is closer to calling out nations for spying - everyone knows nations spy on one another, but they call them out to humiliate or other goals. It's not really new.

mehrdadn 6y ago

I'm not sure openly calling out other countries like this is really new. See for instance [1]: > By 1987, the Soviets began to sour on the campaign as Moscow’s scientific establishment rebuked it. Secretary of State George P. Shultz also accused Mikhail S. Gorbachev, who was then the leader of the Soviet Union, with hawking “bum dope about AIDS.” Mr. Gorbachev ordered the K.G.B. to stop spreading the conspiracy theory and after the collapse of the bloc, former Soviet intelligence officials owned up to it. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/us/politics/russian-disinformation-aids-fake-news.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/12/us/politics/russian-disin...

meowface 6y ago
>hawking bum dope about AIDS Odd turn of phrase.
- aspenmayer 6y ago
  They are referring to Operation Denver, a KGB plot to sow misinformation suggesting that AIDS was a US government conspiracy as early as 1983. https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/operation-denver-kgb-aids-disinformation-campaign/ https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/operation-denver-kgb-aids...
  - meowface 6y ago
    Oh, I know, I just thought it was funny to refer to disinformation as "hawking bum dope". (Though this is a merging of the NYT's word and the quote.) Not really something anyone would say in modern American English.
DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
Ironic that nowadays the US government is the one promoting conspiracy theories about a pandemic. Even the theory is almost exactly the same: that the virus comes from a lab.
- kspacewalk2 6y ago
  You're taking about the assertion that the virus spread from an accidental contamination at a lab in Wuhan. It is crossing into conspiracy theory territory to believe the assertion without proof. However, the theory itself is completely reasonable and sound. This is an unproven claim; a conspiracy theory is something different.
  - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
    The theory is just as "reasonable" as the Soviet misinformation about HIV was. That is, not at all. It's a wildly implausible assertion that there's no evidence for. People outside of labs are exposed to bat coronaviruses all the time. The chances that one of a very small number of highly trained researchers working according to strict protocols was patient zero - as opposed to the millions of regular people who come into contact with bat coronaviruses with absolutely no protection or training - is minuscule. Just like the Soviet misinformation in the 1980s, the theory can't be disproven right now, in exactly the same way that any other malicious accusation made with zero evidence can't be disproven. The Trump administration is acting extremely recklessly by spreading this unsupported conspiracy theory.
    - dependenttypes 6y ago
      > implausible Explain the previous sars releases then.
      - DiogenesKynikos 6y ago
        SARS spilled over naturally, not from a lab. After it spilled over naturally, it became the subject of intense study, sometimes in labs with poor procedures. Huge amounts of SARS-CoV were being cultured by people with little training. That's an entirely different circumstance from now. The lab where they study coronaviruses in Wuhan operates at a much higher standard than poorly run Chinese labs in 2004. The lab in Wuhan wasn't even conceived back then. It's essentially proven that SARS-CoV-2 was not under study before the outbreak, because the it's not in any of the standard databases where all known coronaviruses are published. But even disregarding that, the idea that huge quantities of a virus that nobody has ever heard of would be cultured is implausible.

082349872349872 6y ago

In 1987, they weren't on twitter, like the US and the Taliban exchanging agreement barbs recently. (unlike in certain quarters, I think these twitter presences have allowed some grievance airing which has actually helped the peace) Maybe we can get them all to settle their differences with a dance-off on TikTok?

creaghpatr 6y ago
We've already got embassies sniping memes on Twitter, TikTok 'battles' doesn't seem like such an unreasonable development.

mtgx 6y ago

It's one of the main reasons why having an authoritarian lead your country is a bad thing. Things can much more easily escalate to war just because their personal feelings were hurt and won't admit to their mistakes.

nocturnial 6y ago

They always called each other out, but this was usually done privately, not publically. If it's done publically, it's usually not a message to a foreign entity but rather a message targeted for domestic consumption. The NSA got a bad reputation with the release of the Snowden files and I guess what we're seeing today is the result of that. Hiring talented people got more difficult for them. So they are releasing ghidra and doing PR stunts like this one to convince potential employees that the NSA isn't that bad. I'm not making a judgement of what the NSA did or does is bad or what Snowden did was good or bad. Not even whether this PR move was warranted to show they are doing positive things. All I'm saying it's a PR move.

vsareto 6y ago

MAD is for nukes, there's not mutually assured destruction in many conflicts going on today. Least of all for nations hacking one another. This is closer to calling out nations for spying - everyone knows nations spy on one another, but they call them out to humiliate or other goals. It's not really new.