4 ms·

Despite my somewhat limited knowledge in biology, my intuition was telling me that the number of patients seems way too small to come to definitive conclusions.

Despite my somewhat limited knowledge in biology, my intuition was telling me that the number of patients seems way too small to come to definitive conclusions. Mind you, if Vitamin-D, magnesium and B12 play a role, that's good news for me: I've been very strict about those 3 in the past 2 years(and coincidentally loaded up my magnesium stash yesterday).

rrmm 6y ago
43 is a reasonable number to start with (it gives you some power wrt sample variance, but you have to pay attention to randomization). It might give you some information if the intervention were really, really bad for patients or really really good. (So it could be used to establish possible harms). But definitely not useful farther than that except to justify larger studies. I'm still hoping we catch a break one of these days.
drocer88 6y ago
The authors address the issue of small sample size in the Discusson section: "This study was conducted under difficult dynamic circumstances and is thus limited by the small sample size, and the lack of systematic biologic measures to support its findings. It is however a proof-of-principle effort with very promising results. Our findings would need to be further validated in a well-designed randomized study."
snikeris 6y ago
Magnesium is something I've recently been interested in as well. Surprisingly, you don't find it in many multivitamins, or if you do, it's in small quantities. My guess is that it would make the multivitamin too large if it were included. Leafy green vegetables are a good source of Mg, but most people don't eat enough of those.
- axegon_ 6y ago
  Yep, but even with green vegetables, you'll struggle to get anywhere near the daily recommendation, around 400mg per adult. And that might be significantly more if you are active in some sports for muscle recovery. Personally I can feel the difference given that I exercise daily and I do a 20000 step walks every morning. But yeah, I rely on supplements, which is kind of the easy way out. And even the very good ones are pretty cheap(mine set me back around 20 euros and go for 3 months).
  - snikeris 6y ago
    Curious what you're taking. I've been taking Magnesium L Threonate, but I'm not sure about it. Seems like a newer, perhaps less studied form. Also, what difference are you feeling?
    - axegon_ 6y ago
      Magnesium citrate 200mg(now foods) + animal pak (which includes another 400mg along with a bunch of other vitamins and minerals. I'm a bit over the daily recommendation with those two but most of my spare time revolves around sports since the pandemic so yeah... Differences: - Sleep is considerably better. - Haven't had a single muscle cramp even after something like a 30km walk + 60km bike + gym. Otherwise a common occurrence because genetically I have incredibly strong legs and virtually no body fat on my legs. - Generally I'm less moody and far less likely to (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ when something stupid happens at work for instance. - No exhaustion whatsoever.
      - caleb-allen 6y ago
        I recently started on a 250mg Magnesium Citrate supplement. I began taking it because I have been experiencing weakness in my hands, and after some research reasoned it probably wouldn't hurt to at least try the supplements. I also saw a study that said that 95% of children diagnosed with ADHD are magnesium deficient [0]! Another found a "significant decrease of hyperactivity" in children who were given oral magnesium supplements over 6 months [1]. My wrists and hands have felt better, but I've given a lot of attention to them in addition to the supplements, with more upper body workouts (on top of running 10-15 miles a week) and stretches. I'm looking to get more ergonomic tools as well. While I can't say what is and isn't due to the supplements, I don't currently see a reason to stop taking them. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9368235/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9368235/ [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9368236/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9368236/
        axegon_ 6y ago
        As far as the magnesium citrate goes, I don't see any reasons to stop taking it either. There have been cases when I've forgotten to take it for a day or two and I can feel the difference in the morning after a heavier workout. As for your hands, given that you are focusing on upper body workouts maybe one up your protein intake, see if that improves things. Unless you are a vegan, Icelandic yogurt(skyr) is a pretty solid solution(the unflavored kind). In terms of consistency, I'd say it's similar to Philadelphia cheese but almost tasteless. 1 yogurt a day (350g) made a dramatic improvement in my case. Not sure about the US(judging from the fact that you used miles), but you can find those in almost every grocery store in Europe at this point for around a euro.
- hcarvalhoalves 6y ago
  > Leafy green vegetables are a good source of Mg Unfortunately you'll struggle to reach the recommended doses because our soils are depleted and quality of crops varies wildly. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-and-nutrition-loss/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-an...
coldcode 6y ago
I've seen mentions of Vitamin K2 alongside D, something to do with the calcium issues with D. Maybe the magnesium is another way to manage that?
- _0ffh 6y ago
  Don't know about the Magnesium, but good of you to ask about K2! I've put up a PSA at [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391978

rrmm 6y ago

43 is a reasonable number to start with (it gives you some power wrt sample variance, but you have to pay attention to randomization). It might give you some information if the intervention were really, really bad for patients or really really good. (So it could be used to establish possible harms). But definitely not useful farther than that except to justify larger studies. I'm still hoping we catch a break one of these days.

drocer88 6y ago

The authors address the issue of small sample size in the Discusson section: "This study was conducted under difficult dynamic circumstances and is thus limited by the small sample size, and the lack of systematic biologic measures to support its findings. It is however a proof-of-principle effort with very promising results. Our findings would need to be further validated in a well-designed randomized study."

snikeris 6y ago

Magnesium is something I've recently been interested in as well. Surprisingly, you don't find it in many multivitamins, or if you do, it's in small quantities. My guess is that it would make the multivitamin too large if it were included. Leafy green vegetables are a good source of Mg, but most people don't eat enough of those.

axegon_ 6y ago
Yep, but even with green vegetables, you'll struggle to get anywhere near the daily recommendation, around 400mg per adult. And that might be significantly more if you are active in some sports for muscle recovery. Personally I can feel the difference given that I exercise daily and I do a 20000 step walks every morning. But yeah, I rely on supplements, which is kind of the easy way out. And even the very good ones are pretty cheap(mine set me back around 20 euros and go for 3 months).
- snikeris 6y ago
  Curious what you're taking. I've been taking Magnesium L Threonate, but I'm not sure about it. Seems like a newer, perhaps less studied form. Also, what difference are you feeling?
  - axegon_ 6y ago
    Magnesium citrate 200mg(now foods) + animal pak (which includes another 400mg along with a bunch of other vitamins and minerals. I'm a bit over the daily recommendation with those two but most of my spare time revolves around sports since the pandemic so yeah... Differences: - Sleep is considerably better. - Haven't had a single muscle cramp even after something like a 30km walk + 60km bike + gym. Otherwise a common occurrence because genetically I have incredibly strong legs and virtually no body fat on my legs. - Generally I'm less moody and far less likely to (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ when something stupid happens at work for instance. - No exhaustion whatsoever.
    - caleb-allen 6y ago
      I recently started on a 250mg Magnesium Citrate supplement. I began taking it because I have been experiencing weakness in my hands, and after some research reasoned it probably wouldn't hurt to at least try the supplements. I also saw a study that said that 95% of children diagnosed with ADHD are magnesium deficient [0]! Another found a "significant decrease of hyperactivity" in children who were given oral magnesium supplements over 6 months [1]. My wrists and hands have felt better, but I've given a lot of attention to them in addition to the supplements, with more upper body workouts (on top of running 10-15 miles a week) and stretches. I'm looking to get more ergonomic tools as well. While I can't say what is and isn't due to the supplements, I don't currently see a reason to stop taking them. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9368235/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9368235/ [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9368236/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9368236/
      - axegon_ 6y ago
        As far as the magnesium citrate goes, I don't see any reasons to stop taking it either. There have been cases when I've forgotten to take it for a day or two and I can feel the difference in the morning after a heavier workout. As for your hands, given that you are focusing on upper body workouts maybe one up your protein intake, see if that improves things. Unless you are a vegan, Icelandic yogurt(skyr) is a pretty solid solution(the unflavored kind). In terms of consistency, I'd say it's similar to Philadelphia cheese but almost tasteless. 1 yogurt a day (350g) made a dramatic improvement in my case. Not sure about the US(judging from the fact that you used miles), but you can find those in almost every grocery store in Europe at this point for around a euro.
hcarvalhoalves 6y ago
> Leafy green vegetables are a good source of Mg Unfortunately you'll struggle to reach the recommended doses because our soils are depleted and quality of crops varies wildly. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-and-nutrition-loss/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-an...

coldcode 6y ago

I've seen mentions of Vitamin K2 alongside D, something to do with the calcium issues with D. Maybe the magnesium is another way to manage that?

_0ffh 6y ago
Don't know about the Magnesium, but good of you to ask about K2! I've put up a PSA at [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23391978