3 ms·

> The turn toward period instruments, smaller ensembles, and faster tempos appeared at the end of the 60s, and was steadily established in the 70s with great le

> The turn toward period instruments, smaller ensembles, and faster tempos appeared at the end of the 60s, and was steadily established in the 70s with great leaders like Gustav Leonhardt and Nikolaus Harnoncourt. Is Harnoncourt generally associated with fast tempos? I thought the opposite. His recording of Händel's Messiah runs to 141 minutes (according to Amazon, I don't have my copy here). Almost all other performances I've come across try to squeeze it into two hours. I much prefer Harnoncourt's slower tempo. Though he might have treated other pieces differently.

alessivs 6y ago
> Is Harnoncourt generally associated with fast tempos? Historically informed performance feeds on research on the place, time, established practices, theoretical treatises, instrument construction limitations, interpretative styles, etc. where the music took place. The approach to interpretation is revised upon new discovery. Faster tempi (than romantically-inclined interpretations) are sometimes incidental outcomes, and not exclusive to Harnoncourt. One ingredient for the observation, is at the time Harnoncourt was making strides in the 1950s, conductors were reading tempo markings of old music as if the metronome had already been invented (it is an early 1800s invention). Many famous pieces marked adagio, andante, largo, lento, (denoting a slow tempo) were performed comparatively faster than the romantic readings, as such markings were used quite liberally. Another ingredient is that Harnoncourt had a unique reading of orchestral classical pieces that emphasized tempo and dynamic contrast (e.g. Mozart piano concerti, Beethoven symphonies), which may lead to perceive sections were played faster than usual. And I don't think those traits were set on stone in his idearium. If he were alive today, my impression is he would revise his decades-old reading of Monteverdi's 1610 Vespers, perhaps with slower tempo, applying transpositions in the Magnificat, and refraining from doubling strings and brass in the Dixit Dominus. That is to say, it's not really about tempo, or any specific performance feature, though that's all that may come to our ears, or that we may be able to understand without extensive music knowledge.
masswerk 6y ago
Someone I would have associated more easily with faster tempi is Trevor Pinnock. However, there are some rather fast interpretations by Harnoncourt (maybe more likely of Händel than Bach)
- alessivs 6y ago
  I think, in the end, they're all incidental observations[1]. Readings of early music are revised continuously. Tempo is just one feature of music whose change in manifestation we may be readily able to perceive with our knowledge. There is much more under the hood. Regarding Trevor Pinnock, his Pachelbel Canon & Gigue may be nimble[2] (compared to romantic readings), but then have you heard Reinhard Goebel's (Musica Antiqua Köln)[3]? Rinaldo Alessandrini of Concerto Italiano revised his own approach to Vivaldi's Gloria towards a slower tempo.[4][5] [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23390831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23390831 [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa_ndWt0Hjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa_ndWt0Hjo [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z__dWl0MWbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z__dWl0MWbQ [4]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws470IUmcqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws470IUmcqM [5]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVXf8S6sY5M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVXf8S6sY5M
Bud 6y ago
It's very very difficult to do a full Messiah in under two hours; what you probably heard was a version with cuts. That being said, 141 minutes is not extraordinarily fast overall. Hogwood's recording is 136 minutes; you can find others that are a bit faster yet.
- tom_mellior 6y ago
  For concreteness, the Harnoncourt recording I had in mind is this one: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyXewGfDx5l0xsWKwAlHTT9P_elygrNF2 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyXewGfDx5l0xsWKwAlHT.... According to the calculator at https://ytplaylist-len.herokuapp.com/ https://ytplaylist-len.herokuapp.com/ this has a total length of 147 minutes. At 1.25x speed it would be 118 minutes. I only did a very quick check, but playing it at 1.25x speed does sound comparable to other recordings I've heard. So I'm sure it's doable and would sound okay-ish. I know I have at least once heard a full (uncut) version on the radio that fit exactly into a 2 hour slot. Needless to say, I found it too fast. But it's true that I can't point you to a specific two-hour recording right now.

alessivs 6y ago

> Is Harnoncourt generally associated with fast tempos? Historically informed performance feeds on research on the place, time, established practices, theoretical treatises, instrument construction limitations, interpretative styles, etc. where the music took place. The approach to interpretation is revised upon new discovery. Faster tempi (than romantically-inclined interpretations) are sometimes incidental outcomes, and not exclusive to Harnoncourt. One ingredient for the observation, is at the time Harnoncourt was making strides in the 1950s, conductors were reading tempo markings of old music as if the metronome had already been invented (it is an early 1800s invention). Many famous pieces marked adagio, andante, largo, lento, (denoting a slow tempo) were performed comparatively faster than the romantic readings, as such markings were used quite liberally. Another ingredient is that Harnoncourt had a unique reading of orchestral classical pieces that emphasized tempo and dynamic contrast (e.g. Mozart piano concerti, Beethoven symphonies), which may lead to perceive sections were played faster than usual. And I don't think those traits were set on stone in his idearium. If he were alive today, my impression is he would revise his decades-old reading of Monteverdi's 1610 Vespers, perhaps with slower tempo, applying transpositions in the Magnificat, and refraining from doubling strings and brass in the Dixit Dominus. That is to say, it's not really about tempo, or any specific performance feature, though that's all that may come to our ears, or that we may be able to understand without extensive music knowledge.

masswerk 6y ago

Someone I would have associated more easily with faster tempi is Trevor Pinnock. However, there are some rather fast interpretations by Harnoncourt (maybe more likely of Händel than Bach)

alessivs 6y ago
I think, in the end, they're all incidental observations[1]. Readings of early music are revised continuously. Tempo is just one feature of music whose change in manifestation we may be readily able to perceive with our knowledge. There is much more under the hood. Regarding Trevor Pinnock, his Pachelbel Canon & Gigue may be nimble[2] (compared to romantic readings), but then have you heard Reinhard Goebel's (Musica Antiqua Köln)[3]? Rinaldo Alessandrini of Concerto Italiano revised his own approach to Vivaldi's Gloria towards a slower tempo.[4][5] [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23390831 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23390831 [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa_ndWt0Hjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa_ndWt0Hjo [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z__dWl0MWbQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z__dWl0MWbQ [4]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws470IUmcqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws470IUmcqM [5]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVXf8S6sY5M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVXf8S6sY5M

Bud 6y ago

It's very very difficult to do a full Messiah in under two hours; what you probably heard was a version with cuts. That being said, 141 minutes is not extraordinarily fast overall. Hogwood's recording is 136 minutes; you can find others that are a bit faster yet.

tom_mellior 6y ago
For concreteness, the Harnoncourt recording I had in mind is this one: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyXewGfDx5l0xsWKwAlHTT9P_elygrNF2 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyXewGfDx5l0xsWKwAlHT.... According to the calculator at https://ytplaylist-len.herokuapp.com/ https://ytplaylist-len.herokuapp.com/ this has a total length of 147 minutes. At 1.25x speed it would be 118 minutes. I only did a very quick check, but playing it at 1.25x speed does sound comparable to other recordings I've heard. So I'm sure it's doable and would sound okay-ish. I know I have at least once heard a full (uncut) version on the radio that fit exactly into a 2 hour slot. Needless to say, I found it too fast. But it's true that I can't point you to a specific two-hour recording right now.