12 ms·

It's great to see that countires are starting to become more and more technologically independent. Losing dependency on Silicon Valley may be another step afte

It's great to see that countires are starting to become more and more technologically independent. Losing dependency on Silicon Valley may be another step after becoming hardware independent, or even those efforts can run parallelly. I think I'd want to see tech hubs like London or Hong Kong to have significant part of "giant corps" market

iagovar 6y ago
You can't be independent when your only realistic fab is TSMC. There are some fabs here in Europe, all of them are WAY behind TSMC, be it Infineon, STM or even Globalfoundries, if they are still running. Designing hardware is nice, manufacturing it is the real problem.
- vetinari 6y ago
  That's what sanctions are for. It is always more convenient to use existing capacity at existing vendor (A), than develop a new capacity (B). This has also the effect, that the vendor A gets a bigger part of the pie and there's no money left for the development of the capacity for B. So once you get the Huawei treatment, you have no choice and do B.
  - iagovar 6y ago
    It doesn't matter how many sanctions you pile on top of each other, if you don't have a proper fab there ins't much you can do about it but plan for 15 or 20 years, shower a shitload of money on it and maybe you have something technologically capable, but you won't have a market like TSMC so good luck making it economically viable. In most countries your average consumer can't buy a subpar CPU for 400$.
    - vetinari 6y ago
      The point is, that if you do shower money on TSMC for the next 15 or 20 years, you won't get your own fab built. You give money to someone else to get short-term advantage, at the price of not having long-term capacity & control yourself. You basically co-finance R&D that in the end will get owned by someone else. No, your new fab won't have the market like TSMC today; but so won't TSMC tomorrow, when the market splits. The same thing was Intel vs. rest of the fabs; TSMC made it. Just like Intel couldn't keep themselves on the top forever, the same will happen to TSMC.
      - ethbro 6y ago
        Geopolitically, it'd make more sense to unify TSMC-alternative efforts and share R&D. But countries with... expansive views on autonomy... tend to be poor bedfellows in a partnership. Say what you want about free market capitalism, but it's an effective way of tying multiple countries together.
        qubex 6y ago
        I’m fairly convinced that the authoritarian regimes will eventually come to realise that pooling their resources to jointly develop manufacturing technology will behoove them as it will allow them to build their own fabs to manufacture their own devices. The know-how that will come from this collaboration is useful to all of the participants, and it puts them in a position to be independent of the USA and each-other (if each builds their own fab), and doesn’t require revealing their processor IP. There’s other examples of collaboration between authoritarian regimes. Most of the time (in the 1970s and 1980s in particular) OPEC was hugely effective (just think of the oil crises of the 1970s when they curtailed production) despite the regimes not always being particularly open to collaboration. And realise that collaboration in a cartel such as OPEC provides each member with an incentive to defect and sell more of its own oil at the higher price. A consortium of regimes banding together to develop chip-manufacturing technology would not suffer from such an incentive (after all, they can sell it or divulge it, but that doesn’t reduce it’s value at all — and it’s zero marginal cost anyway).
      - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
        Meanwhile in Zelenograd, seat of the russian Mikron Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikron_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikron_Group and http://www.angstrem.ru/ru/english http://www.angstrem.ru/ru/english in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Research_University_of_Electronic_Technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Research_University_o... the following happened a few years ago: http://www.nanoindustry.su/journal/article/en/6133 http://www.nanoindustry.su/journal/article/en/6133 https://eng.miet.ru/news/91920 https://eng.miet.ru/news/91920 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DIHXh7RlhA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DIHXh7RlhA edit: while the "west" seems to ignore the potential for disruption (of the megafabs) mostly, it seems. 2nd edit: From a cyberwar point of view i couldn't help to burst out in laughter when i saw the coat of arms of Zelenograd, like shown here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelenograd#/media/File:Zelenograd_district_of_Moscow_coa.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelenograd#/media/File:Zelenog... Remember squirrels are one of the main sources of destroyed lines :-)
- tester34 6y ago
  Does ASML being EU based affects this?
- throw1234651234 6y ago
  TSMC - Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company?
  - ethbro 6y ago
    Yes. Aka, one of effectively three leading-edge fabs: TSMC / Samsung / Intel.
    - throw1234651234 6y ago
      Thanks - I don't know much about hardware, so this helps.
    - wahern 6y ago
      Don't all the leading-edge fabs buy their equipment from ASML (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding)? All three--TSMC, Samsung, and Intel--were major shareholders of ASML in 2012. See https://www.barrons.com/articles/intel-follows-samsung-slashes-stake-in-asml-1505476889 https://www.barrons.com/articles/intel-follows-samsung-slash... Though, it seems they've mostly since divested. See https://www.eetimes.com/intel-again-cuts-stake-in-asml/ https://www.eetimes.com/intel-again-cuts-stake-in-asml/
- arianvanp 6y ago
  The biggest Fab factory company in the world is Dutch [0]. TSMC, Intel and friends are customers of theirs and use _their_ equipment and IP. So the Intellectual property seems to be there? It's just that we don't have any actual factories in EU. TSMC seems wholly dependent on Europe here. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding
  - mrweasel 6y ago
    Wow, but does that mean that TSMCs 7nm technology is really ASMLs 7nm technology, or how does that work?
    - wmf 6y ago
      No, developing a semiconductor manufacturing process requires far more than the equipment.
      - mrweasel 6y ago
        I don’t know how to make a semiconductor, but does that mean that Intel couldn’t make a 7nm even if you gave them access to TSMCs fab, because they don’t know how to design a 7nm chip?
        deepnotderp 6y ago
        Assuming no knowledge of the process, Yup! Although it's maybe complicated by the fact that Intel has active development on 7nm, so they might be able to pick up hints from an existing 7nm line.
    - pkaye 6y ago
      There are a large number of companies that make the equipment for the fabs. For example, Applied Materials and LAM Research in the Bay Area also make a a wide variety of machines. ASML makes mainly the lithography equipment which turns out to be quite expensive. Its like each vendor provides some of the equipment in the kitchen and TSMC is the chef. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_equipment_sales_leaders_by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_equipment_sales_...
kick 6y ago
This isn't new; this architecture goes back decades, and they've had hardware for ages. It's really cool, but it's not like it's just starting out.
dang 6y ago
Could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You needn't use your real name of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for others to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20community%20identity https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> It's great to see that countires are starting to become more and more technologically independent. I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I like seeing a diversity of technologies. On the other hand, economic interdependence is one of the forces that prevents countries going to war.

iagovar 6y ago

You can't be independent when your only realistic fab is TSMC. There are some fabs here in Europe, all of them are WAY behind TSMC, be it Infineon, STM or even Globalfoundries, if they are still running. Designing hardware is nice, manufacturing it is the real problem.

vetinari 6y ago
That's what sanctions are for. It is always more convenient to use existing capacity at existing vendor (A), than develop a new capacity (B). This has also the effect, that the vendor A gets a bigger part of the pie and there's no money left for the development of the capacity for B. So once you get the Huawei treatment, you have no choice and do B.
- iagovar 6y ago
  It doesn't matter how many sanctions you pile on top of each other, if you don't have a proper fab there ins't much you can do about it but plan for 15 or 20 years, shower a shitload of money on it and maybe you have something technologically capable, but you won't have a market like TSMC so good luck making it economically viable. In most countries your average consumer can't buy a subpar CPU for 400$.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    The point is, that if you do shower money on TSMC for the next 15 or 20 years, you won't get your own fab built. You give money to someone else to get short-term advantage, at the price of not having long-term capacity & control yourself. You basically co-finance R&D that in the end will get owned by someone else. No, your new fab won't have the market like TSMC today; but so won't TSMC tomorrow, when the market splits. The same thing was Intel vs. rest of the fabs; TSMC made it. Just like Intel couldn't keep themselves on the top forever, the same will happen to TSMC.
    - ethbro 6y ago
      Geopolitically, it'd make more sense to unify TSMC-alternative efforts and share R&D. But countries with... expansive views on autonomy... tend to be poor bedfellows in a partnership. Say what you want about free market capitalism, but it's an effective way of tying multiple countries together.
      - qubex 6y ago
        I’m fairly convinced that the authoritarian regimes will eventually come to realise that pooling their resources to jointly develop manufacturing technology will behoove them as it will allow them to build their own fabs to manufacture their own devices. The know-how that will come from this collaboration is useful to all of the participants, and it puts them in a position to be independent of the USA and each-other (if each builds their own fab), and doesn’t require revealing their processor IP. There’s other examples of collaboration between authoritarian regimes. Most of the time (in the 1970s and 1980s in particular) OPEC was hugely effective (just think of the oil crises of the 1970s when they curtailed production) despite the regimes not always being particularly open to collaboration. And realise that collaboration in a cartel such as OPEC provides each member with an incentive to defect and sell more of its own oil at the higher price. A consortium of regimes banding together to develop chip-manufacturing technology would not suffer from such an incentive (after all, they can sell it or divulge it, but that doesn’t reduce it’s value at all — and it’s zero marginal cost anyway).
    - LargoLasskhyfv 6y ago
      Meanwhile in Zelenograd, seat of the russian Mikron Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikron_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikron_Group and http://www.angstrem.ru/ru/english http://www.angstrem.ru/ru/english in the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Research_University_of_Electronic_Technology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Research_University_o... the following happened a few years ago: http://www.nanoindustry.su/journal/article/en/6133 http://www.nanoindustry.su/journal/article/en/6133 https://eng.miet.ru/news/91920 https://eng.miet.ru/news/91920 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DIHXh7RlhA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DIHXh7RlhA edit: while the "west" seems to ignore the potential for disruption (of the megafabs) mostly, it seems. 2nd edit: From a cyberwar point of view i couldn't help to burst out in laughter when i saw the coat of arms of Zelenograd, like shown here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelenograd#/media/File:Zelenograd_district_of_Moscow_coa.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zelenograd#/media/File:Zelenog... Remember squirrels are one of the main sources of destroyed lines :-)
tester34 6y ago
Does ASML being EU based affects this?
throw1234651234 6y ago
TSMC - Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company?
- ethbro 6y ago
  Yes. Aka, one of effectively three leading-edge fabs: TSMC / Samsung / Intel.
  - throw1234651234 6y ago
    Thanks - I don't know much about hardware, so this helps.
  - wahern 6y ago
    Don't all the leading-edge fabs buy their equipment from ASML (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding)? All three--TSMC, Samsung, and Intel--were major shareholders of ASML in 2012. See https://www.barrons.com/articles/intel-follows-samsung-slashes-stake-in-asml-1505476889 https://www.barrons.com/articles/intel-follows-samsung-slash... Though, it seems they've mostly since divested. See https://www.eetimes.com/intel-again-cuts-stake-in-asml/ https://www.eetimes.com/intel-again-cuts-stake-in-asml/
arianvanp 6y ago
The biggest Fab factory company in the world is Dutch [0]. TSMC, Intel and friends are customers of theirs and use _their_ equipment and IP. So the Intellectual property seems to be there? It's just that we don't have any actual factories in EU. TSMC seems wholly dependent on Europe here. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASML_Holding
- mrweasel 6y ago
  Wow, but does that mean that TSMCs 7nm technology is really ASMLs 7nm technology, or how does that work?
  - wmf 6y ago
    No, developing a semiconductor manufacturing process requires far more than the equipment.
    - mrweasel 6y ago
      I don’t know how to make a semiconductor, but does that mean that Intel couldn’t make a 7nm even if you gave them access to TSMCs fab, because they don’t know how to design a 7nm chip?
      - deepnotderp 6y ago
        Assuming no knowledge of the process, Yup! Although it's maybe complicated by the fact that Intel has active development on 7nm, so they might be able to pick up hints from an existing 7nm line.
  - pkaye 6y ago
    There are a large number of companies that make the equipment for the fabs. For example, Applied Materials and LAM Research in the Bay Area also make a a wide variety of machines. ASML makes mainly the lithography equipment which turns out to be quite expensive. Its like each vendor provides some of the equipment in the kitchen and TSMC is the chef. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_equipment_sales_leaders_by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiconductor_equipment_sales_...

kick 6y ago

This isn't new; this architecture goes back decades, and they've had hardware for ages. It's really cool, but it's not like it's just starting out.

dang 6y ago

Could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We ban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You needn't use your real name of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for others to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a different kind of forum. https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix&page=0&query=by:dang%20community%20identity https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

MaxBarraclough 6y ago

> It's great to see that countires are starting to become more and more technologically independent. I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I like seeing a diversity of technologies. On the other hand, economic interdependence is one of the forces that prevents countries going to war.