4 ms·

The point is, if citizens are armed, they can keep the peace (more or less) without police for a while.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
adrianN 6y ago
I don't think that the peace comes from guns. Police in my country very rarely use theirs. And "for a while" can be quite long if you need to find and train a complete new police force. Besides, I'd rather have somewhat trained but biased and bad police officers, than a completely untrained mob enforcing the law.
- adt2bt 6y ago
  I agree. It feels very American to believe we cannot keep peace without the persistent threat of having your life ended.
- AnthonyMouse 6y ago
  > I don't think that the peace comes from guns. Police in my country very rarely use theirs. It comes from having them, not from using them. You don't have to shoot at gangs robbing everybody at knifepoint if the threat of getting shot deters them from going around robbing everybody at knifepoint. > And "for a while" can be quite long if you need to find and train a complete new police force. In practice most of what the police do is paperwork and interviews. If the general population is armed (so the deterrent is still there) then you could take the guns away from the police and never have them leave the police station and still almost all of the policework would get done.
  - adrianN 6y ago
    How would that work in practice? Say I have a traffic accident and the other party is uncooperative. We both threaten to use our guns unless the other party admits fault and then somehow the necessary paperwork for an insurance claim gets done? Or my neighbors decide that 2am is a great time for some jackhammering. I threaten to shoot them unless they stop? They threaten to shoot me in turn? Does this depend on righteous mobs of gun owners assembling and holding an impromptu court martial?
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      > Say I have a traffic accident and the other party is uncooperative. You take a picture of their license plate number and bring it to a courthouse. They show up in court or the court gives you a default judgement and orders their insurance/bank to give you the money. > Or my neighbors decide that 2am is a great time for some jackhammering. You make a timestamped recording of the jackhammering and bring it to a courthouse. Do you see where this is going? You don't need police to have courts. And most of the time you don't even need to use the courts for the same reason you don't need to use the guns -- the other party can predict what will happen and it's easier for everybody to settle things and not go there.
      - adrianN 6y ago
        What if I don't want the jackhammering to continue for a year until I have my court date? What if my neighbors don't give a fuck about court dates?
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        What happens in that case now? The police show up, they agree to stop and then don't, you call the police again, they agree to stop and then don't. You're still in court if you want them to stop and they won't, and they still actually stop because they don't want to end up in court. (You could also write to your legislators to hire enough judges that you don't have to wait a year for a court date.) And if they don't show up in court then you win and the court fines them.
        adrianN 6y ago
        I'm reasonably sure that the police would take away their jackhammer and/or arrest them after repeated calls.
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        People generally don't get arrested or have their stuff stolen over noise complaints. More likely they'd issue a citation, which is really just a piece of paper that leads to a court date, i.e. the same thing you can get by bringing your evidence to a judge/prosecutor.
dividedbyzero 6y ago
In the current political climate, I just can't picture that not ending in horrible carnage.
pjc50 6y ago
The question at issue in the protest is protecting the citizens from the police.
zaphirplane 6y ago
You live in a country with civilian political control of the police. Police miss behaving/corruption/brutality/public execution are political problems. A mayor/governor can sack the police and they will hand in their badges and walk away. The reason it doesn’t happen is because society allows the political to not hold the police accountable. There is no possibility of sacked police execution a coup , it isn’t an armed confrontation problem

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

I don't think that the peace comes from guns. Police in my country very rarely use theirs. And "for a while" can be quite long if you need to find and train a complete new police force. Besides, I'd rather have somewhat trained but biased and bad police officers, than a completely untrained mob enforcing the law.

adt2bt 6y ago
I agree. It feels very American to believe we cannot keep peace without the persistent threat of having your life ended.
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> I don't think that the peace comes from guns. Police in my country very rarely use theirs. It comes from having them, not from using them. You don't have to shoot at gangs robbing everybody at knifepoint if the threat of getting shot deters them from going around robbing everybody at knifepoint. > And "for a while" can be quite long if you need to find and train a complete new police force. In practice most of what the police do is paperwork and interviews. If the general population is armed (so the deterrent is still there) then you could take the guns away from the police and never have them leave the police station and still almost all of the policework would get done.
- adrianN 6y ago
  How would that work in practice? Say I have a traffic accident and the other party is uncooperative. We both threaten to use our guns unless the other party admits fault and then somehow the necessary paperwork for an insurance claim gets done? Or my neighbors decide that 2am is a great time for some jackhammering. I threaten to shoot them unless they stop? They threaten to shoot me in turn? Does this depend on righteous mobs of gun owners assembling and holding an impromptu court martial?
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    > Say I have a traffic accident and the other party is uncooperative. You take a picture of their license plate number and bring it to a courthouse. They show up in court or the court gives you a default judgement and orders their insurance/bank to give you the money. > Or my neighbors decide that 2am is a great time for some jackhammering. You make a timestamped recording of the jackhammering and bring it to a courthouse. Do you see where this is going? You don't need police to have courts. And most of the time you don't even need to use the courts for the same reason you don't need to use the guns -- the other party can predict what will happen and it's easier for everybody to settle things and not go there.
    - adrianN 6y ago
      What if I don't want the jackhammering to continue for a year until I have my court date? What if my neighbors don't give a fuck about court dates?
      - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        What happens in that case now? The police show up, they agree to stop and then don't, you call the police again, they agree to stop and then don't. You're still in court if you want them to stop and they won't, and they still actually stop because they don't want to end up in court. (You could also write to your legislators to hire enough judges that you don't have to wait a year for a court date.) And if they don't show up in court then you win and the court fines them.
        adrianN 6y ago
        I'm reasonably sure that the police would take away their jackhammer and/or arrest them after repeated calls.
        AnthonyMouse 6y ago
        People generally don't get arrested or have their stuff stolen over noise complaints. More likely they'd issue a citation, which is really just a piece of paper that leads to a court date, i.e. the same thing you can get by bringing your evidence to a judge/prosecutor.

dividedbyzero 6y ago

In the current political climate, I just can't picture that not ending in horrible carnage.

pjc50 6y ago

The question at issue in the protest is protecting the citizens from the police.

zaphirplane 6y ago

You live in a country with civilian political control of the police. Police miss behaving/corruption/brutality/public execution are political problems. A mayor/governor can sack the police and they will hand in their badges and walk away. The reason it doesn’t happen is because society allows the political to not hold the police accountable. There is no possibility of sacked police execution a coup , it isn’t an armed confrontation problem