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Did you ever attempt to engage in discussion people that self-identify as antifa online? Trust me, it is not a pleasant experience. My experiences so far were t

Did you ever attempt to engage in discussion people that self-identify as antifa online? Trust me, it is not a pleasant experience. My experiences so far were that they are full of mccarthyism accusing pretty much everyone of being a nazi, and that they want to silence (whether violently or via "cancelling") pretty much everyone who disagrees with them or defends someone who they do not like - even about the most mundane topic (as long as it is political/social). In addition if you check out antifa communities you will see that a lot of them engage in things like doxing and support arson of public property and buisnesses. Antifa is far from being just anti-fascist, even the original organisation, Antifaschistische Aktion was a Stalinist puppet.

enriquto 6y ago
This seems to be mostly a US-ian thing. From europe, it is perfectly acceptable to label yourself as "antifascist", with no ill intent understood by anybody (except fringe right wing extremists). I abhor "cancel culture" and the political correctness bullshit, but I still say proudly that I am antifa.
- pathseeker 6y ago
  That's why it helps to distinguish between ANTIFA and being anti-fascist. There is only a small overlap between those two groups.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - enriquto 6y ago
    It doesn't really help. One is just a shorthand for the other.
    - hhjinks 6y ago
      No, one is an opinion, the other is a label you willingly have to apply to yourself, in which you also associate yourself with several groups across the world of varying moral fabric.
    - josteink 6y ago
      In the same way as being a National and Socialists is the same as being a Nazi, killing millions of Jews? Some times things become a thing of their own. Then differentiating makes sense. Being anti-fascist is a good thing. Being an anti-democratic organisation which violently attacks civilians for having made the “wrong” vote in a democratic election is not. ANTIFA has nothing to do with anti-fascism. Differentiation is not only useful, it’s absolutely required.
      - astronautjones 6y ago
        > Being an anti-democratic organisation which violently attacks civilians for having made the “wrong” vote in a democratic election is not. this is a lie though. where's your evidence of this? where is it organized? If "attacks on civilians for having made the wrong vote" actually happened at all, let alone on the scale you're talking about, don't you think trump would be parading arrested people around like bin laden? don't you think they'd have a list of wanted members? it's a nonexistent boogeyman. so far in this thread someone has mentioned "they beat people in the head with bike locks". OK, how many times has that happened? Less than 20? Less than 10? Can't you see how ridiculous (and bad faith) it is to pretend that that is a vast anti-democratic organization?? Can't you see that this boogeyman is gonna be used to vilify anyone who opposes the fascism they're pushing for? Or do you not care? Better to have journalists shot in the eyes, protesters murdered, beat in the streets so that you don't have to question your ghost story about thousands of angry ninjas with bike locks beating up everyone who voted for trump? I beg you to look through your sources and realize what absolute nonsense you're being pushed by people with no crediblity
        josteink 6y ago
        > this is a lie though. where's your evidence of this? Yeah I’m obviously just making shit like this[1] up. This was happening withspread throughout the US, repeatedly, week after week after the last election. No need to filter the news to disreputable sources to find full evidence for ANTIFA being a violent, anti-democratic organisation. > where is it organized? No idea. I’m not an insider, but when you see it happen again and again, with the same masks, same kind of people, same and same name at different places, it’s obviously not happening at random. > Better to have journalists shot in the eyes, protesters murdered, beat in the streets Now you are lying. Nobody is in support of this. Condemning ANTIFA as the anti-democratic, violent organisation it is, does not mean endorsing other forms of violence, like police brutality. If anything, this is your boogeyman. [1] https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/oct/4/antifa-america-canceled-rally-trump-minneapolis-/ https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/oct/4/antifa-america...
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  It is more like an anglosphere thing I would say. In my experience so far it seems that at least some Europeans have pushed the American meaning of "antifa" into the term "anarchist". Regardless, the www does not discriminate based on where you live[note]. You get both Europeans and US residents seeing the same content, so I expect that to change soon (if it hasn't already - similar to the term "liberal" shifting from economic liberalism/capitalism to mean left wing). [note] excluding things like "this video is not available for your country"
  - rtz12 6y ago
    > some Europeans have pushed the American meaning of "antifa" into the term "anarchist". Let me cite the German Wikipedia: > Antifa (Akronym für Antifaschistische Aktion) ist der Oberbegriff für verschiedene, im Regelfall eher locker strukturierte, kurzfristige autonome Strömungen der linken bis linksextremen Szene. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa Here, Wikipedia describes Antifa as an umbrella Term for "autonomous groups" in the far-left extremist scene. "autonomous groups" being: > Als Autonome (altgriechisch: αὐτονομία, autonomía, „Unabhängigkeit, Selbstständigkeit“) oder autonome Gruppen werden heute Mitglieder bestimmter linksradikaler[1] unorthodox-marxistischer beziehungsweise anarchistischer Bewegungen bezeichnet. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonome https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonome Describing them as members of "unorthodox marxist/anarchist" movements. For all I can remember, this was the definition of "Antifa" here in Germany. Despite constant whitewashing and overton-window shifting attempts.
  - enriquto 6y ago
    > Regardless, the www does not discriminate based on where you live[note]. google searches are strongly ip-geolocalized > You get both Europeans and US residents seeing the same content I disagree. Most europeans do not read english content at all.
- rtz12 6y ago
  It might not be problematic to call yourself an anti-fascist in Europe, but specifically Antifa? I don't know in what kind of bubble you live, but to me and most people that I know, this would be outing yourself as a militant Anarchist. There is a big shitstorm on Twitter and an edit war on Wikipedia right now, because the left wing of the German Social Democrats have appealed to Antifa.
  - dependenttypes 6y ago
    The German or the English Wikipedia?
    - rtz12 6y ago
      German Wikipedia. An SPD politician tried to redefine the word "Antifa" to mean just "Antifascist" in the article. https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antifa&diff=200535146&oldid=200534844 https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antifa&diff=20053...
te_chris 6y ago
Yes, I have friends who are involved in this sort of thing and it's nothing like you describe. It's almost like you want to paint the whole thing with a broadbrush to try and make their criticisms irrelevent.
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  > Yes, I have friends who are involved in this sort of thing and it's nothing like you describe There are always out-liners. In the same spirit I am sure that you can find people self-identifying as non-racist fascists. > to try and make their criticisms irrelevent Their criticisms of what? Of the material realm? I do not think that trash-cans harmed me yet so I see no reason to destroy them. Or do you mean their criticism of capitalism/the current system/fascism/racism/etc? If so I agree with them.
uniqueid 6y ago
Do you have far-right views? That might explain why others in this thread notice less antagonism than you.
- textgel 6y ago
  Nicely demonstrating ops point; if someone points out the behaviour of accusing all who disagree with you of being nazis it's unwise to immediately accuse said person of sharing views with Nazi like groups .
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - uniqueid 6y ago
    I feel like I told him he had a "Chaplin-like moustache" and then your comment paraphrased my comment as "Hitler-like moustache." They may be similar moustaches, but the latter would neither be what I actually wrote, nor meant.
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  I do not think that I have far-right views, I do not follow their "party" line however, for example I am pro-free speech for everyone. I was accused twice by antifa people of being fascist myself. Once because I expressed my pro-archiving/anti-copyright views and another time when someone accused my friend (who is an actual anti-fascist that organises non-violent anti-fascist events in real life) of being a fascist because he does not agree with their violent policies and I went to defend him - in neither case they explained why they think that I am a fascist and I had no prior interaction with these people. Regarding antagonism, in general people reply only when they have something to add or when they disagree with a post. If they have nothing to add but agree then they just upvote instead. I can't guarantee that this is the case here however.

enriquto 6y ago

This seems to be mostly a US-ian thing. From europe, it is perfectly acceptable to label yourself as "antifascist", with no ill intent understood by anybody (except fringe right wing extremists). I abhor "cancel culture" and the political correctness bullshit, but I still say proudly that I am antifa.

pathseeker 6y ago
That's why it helps to distinguish between ANTIFA and being anti-fascist. There is only a small overlap between those two groups.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- enriquto 6y ago
  It doesn't really help. One is just a shorthand for the other.
  - hhjinks 6y ago
    No, one is an opinion, the other is a label you willingly have to apply to yourself, in which you also associate yourself with several groups across the world of varying moral fabric.
  - josteink 6y ago
    In the same way as being a National and Socialists is the same as being a Nazi, killing millions of Jews? Some times things become a thing of their own. Then differentiating makes sense. Being anti-fascist is a good thing. Being an anti-democratic organisation which violently attacks civilians for having made the “wrong” vote in a democratic election is not. ANTIFA has nothing to do with anti-fascism. Differentiation is not only useful, it’s absolutely required.
    - astronautjones 6y ago
      > Being an anti-democratic organisation which violently attacks civilians for having made the “wrong” vote in a democratic election is not. this is a lie though. where's your evidence of this? where is it organized? If "attacks on civilians for having made the wrong vote" actually happened at all, let alone on the scale you're talking about, don't you think trump would be parading arrested people around like bin laden? don't you think they'd have a list of wanted members? it's a nonexistent boogeyman. so far in this thread someone has mentioned "they beat people in the head with bike locks". OK, how many times has that happened? Less than 20? Less than 10? Can't you see how ridiculous (and bad faith) it is to pretend that that is a vast anti-democratic organization?? Can't you see that this boogeyman is gonna be used to vilify anyone who opposes the fascism they're pushing for? Or do you not care? Better to have journalists shot in the eyes, protesters murdered, beat in the streets so that you don't have to question your ghost story about thousands of angry ninjas with bike locks beating up everyone who voted for trump? I beg you to look through your sources and realize what absolute nonsense you're being pushed by people with no crediblity
      - josteink 6y ago
        > this is a lie though. where's your evidence of this? Yeah I’m obviously just making shit like this[1] up. This was happening withspread throughout the US, repeatedly, week after week after the last election. No need to filter the news to disreputable sources to find full evidence for ANTIFA being a violent, anti-democratic organisation. > where is it organized? No idea. I’m not an insider, but when you see it happen again and again, with the same masks, same kind of people, same and same name at different places, it’s obviously not happening at random. > Better to have journalists shot in the eyes, protesters murdered, beat in the streets Now you are lying. Nobody is in support of this. Condemning ANTIFA as the anti-democratic, violent organisation it is, does not mean endorsing other forms of violence, like police brutality. If anything, this is your boogeyman. [1] https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/oct/4/antifa-america-canceled-rally-trump-minneapolis-/ https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/oct/4/antifa-america...
dependenttypes 6y ago
It is more like an anglosphere thing I would say. In my experience so far it seems that at least some Europeans have pushed the American meaning of "antifa" into the term "anarchist". Regardless, the www does not discriminate based on where you live[note]. You get both Europeans and US residents seeing the same content, so I expect that to change soon (if it hasn't already - similar to the term "liberal" shifting from economic liberalism/capitalism to mean left wing). [note] excluding things like "this video is not available for your country"
- rtz12 6y ago
  > some Europeans have pushed the American meaning of "antifa" into the term "anarchist". Let me cite the German Wikipedia: > Antifa (Akronym für Antifaschistische Aktion) ist der Oberbegriff für verschiedene, im Regelfall eher locker strukturierte, kurzfristige autonome Strömungen der linken bis linksextremen Szene. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifa Here, Wikipedia describes Antifa as an umbrella Term for "autonomous groups" in the far-left extremist scene. "autonomous groups" being: > Als Autonome (altgriechisch: αὐτονομία, autonomía, „Unabhängigkeit, Selbstständigkeit“) oder autonome Gruppen werden heute Mitglieder bestimmter linksradikaler[1] unorthodox-marxistischer beziehungsweise anarchistischer Bewegungen bezeichnet. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonome https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonome Describing them as members of "unorthodox marxist/anarchist" movements. For all I can remember, this was the definition of "Antifa" here in Germany. Despite constant whitewashing and overton-window shifting attempts.
- enriquto 6y ago
  > Regardless, the www does not discriminate based on where you live[note]. google searches are strongly ip-geolocalized > You get both Europeans and US residents seeing the same content I disagree. Most europeans do not read english content at all.
rtz12 6y ago
It might not be problematic to call yourself an anti-fascist in Europe, but specifically Antifa? I don't know in what kind of bubble you live, but to me and most people that I know, this would be outing yourself as a militant Anarchist. There is a big shitstorm on Twitter and an edit war on Wikipedia right now, because the left wing of the German Social Democrats have appealed to Antifa.
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  The German or the English Wikipedia?
  - rtz12 6y ago
    German Wikipedia. An SPD politician tried to redefine the word "Antifa" to mean just "Antifascist" in the article. https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antifa&diff=200535146&oldid=200534844 https://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Antifa&diff=20053...

te_chris 6y ago

Yes, I have friends who are involved in this sort of thing and it's nothing like you describe. It's almost like you want to paint the whole thing with a broadbrush to try and make their criticisms irrelevent.

dependenttypes 6y ago
> Yes, I have friends who are involved in this sort of thing and it's nothing like you describe There are always out-liners. In the same spirit I am sure that you can find people self-identifying as non-racist fascists. > to try and make their criticisms irrelevent Their criticisms of what? Of the material realm? I do not think that trash-cans harmed me yet so I see no reason to destroy them. Or do you mean their criticism of capitalism/the current system/fascism/racism/etc? If so I agree with them.

uniqueid 6y ago

Do you have far-right views? That might explain why others in this thread notice less antagonism than you.

textgel 6y ago
Nicely demonstrating ops point; if someone points out the behaviour of accusing all who disagree with you of being nazis it's unwise to immediately accuse said person of sharing views with Nazi like groups .
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- uniqueid 6y ago
  I feel like I told him he had a "Chaplin-like moustache" and then your comment paraphrased my comment as "Hitler-like moustache." They may be similar moustaches, but the latter would neither be what I actually wrote, nor meant.
dependenttypes 6y ago
I do not think that I have far-right views, I do not follow their "party" line however, for example I am pro-free speech for everyone. I was accused twice by antifa people of being fascist myself. Once because I expressed my pro-archiving/anti-copyright views and another time when someone accused my friend (who is an actual anti-fascist that organises non-violent anti-fascist events in real life) of being a fascist because he does not agree with their violent policies and I went to defend him - in neither case they explained why they think that I am a fascist and I had no prior interaction with these people. Regarding antagonism, in general people reply only when they have something to add or when they disagree with a post. If they have nothing to add but agree then they just upvote instead. I can't guarantee that this is the case here however.