8 ms·

I don't think you're allowed to point it out here, but there is a large audience here that is a massive part of the problem. rich, influential people with power

I don't think you're allowed to point it out here, but there is a large audience here that is a massive part of the problem. rich, influential people with power (whether they use it or not) riding this generation's wave of prosperity with no knowledge of or interest in the people that are affected by their jobs and lifestyles. smart enough to learn to code or to polish a pitch to a vc, but lacking any critical thinking skills or morality that would cause them to reflect on their position in society. flocking to the right at the first hint of something that does reflect these truths. supporting fascists because you're scared or uncomfortable is even worse than supporting fascists because you're a bigot imo

nailer 6y ago
Antifa literally exist to use violence upon people who don't share their politics, which is one of the hallmarks of fascism. Naming yourself "the good guys" doesn't mean anyone who opposes you is bad. It's like if someone said disliking 'Make America Great Again' means you don't want America to be great. Or opposing the Patriot Act makes you not a patriot. You know this, everyone else reading this knows this, stop pretending we don't.
- astronautjones 6y ago
  no, they don't! what are you talking about? I have been to places where people have to defend themselves from neo nazis coming to beat them up for being gay. it is a label that indicates reactive protection from fascist violence, period
  - nailer 6y ago
    I think my post was pretty clear. The fact that nazis exist doesn't invalidate it. Again you probably know this so I'm not going to bother replying further.
    - joshuamorton 6y ago
      Equivocation between literal facicts and people who want to fight literal facists doesn't make a lot of sense. So no, I really, truly have no clue what you're getting at. Like as far as I can tell you're saying "being willing to punch a Nazi makes you a Nazi". Which, like, no.
      - malka 6y ago
        saying antifa = facist is the hallmark of facist supporters.
        textgel 6y ago
        Claiming an evidently violent group is beyond reproach would raise questions about the morality of the claimant.
        junke 6y ago
        "Beyond reproach", a claim made by whom?
        malka 6y ago
        nobody said they are not beyond reproach. However, they are not facists.
      - barking 6y ago
        Demonising your enemies as racists or fascists, ie nazis and employing mob tactics to "no platform" them or otherwise shut them up as in "no free speech for racists", strike me as exactly the sort of tactics the real fascists employed in the 1930s. So in that sense, yes, Antifa groups/coalitions/collectives/networks frequently behave like fascists. Which is no surprise really if you subscribe to the horseshoe model of the political spectrum.
      - nailer 6y ago
        My post: >> Naming yourself "the good guys" doesn't mean anyone who opposes you is bad. It's like if someone said disliking 'Make America Great Again' means you don't want America to be great. Or opposing the Patriot Act makes you not a patriot. Your reply: > Like as far as I can tell you're saying "being willing to punch a Nazi makes you a Nazi". ok
- eirini1 6y ago
  I wonder if you also think that the allies forces in ww2 were also fascists for going to war with nazi germany. They were after all, using violence of people who didn't share their politics (politics of genocide). Equivocating someone who wants to commit genocide and someone who wants to stop them from doing so can certainly be done with saying that they both "want to commit violence to people who don't agree with them" but its a very good example where ignoring the political content of an action in favor of the content can lead you to really bizarre statements.
  - nailer 6y ago
    > allies forces in ww2 were after all, using violence of people who didn't share their politics (politics of genocide). Antifa use violence on unarmed opponents. Their enemies are anyone who does not share far left politics. I find it very difficult to believe you are not already aware of this.
    - ohbleek 6y ago
      This is provably false. It’s possible this has occurred but exceptions are not the rule and you’re painting with the broadest of brushes.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        > This is provably false. I mean, no, it happened, so obviously you cannot prove it didn't happen. > It’s possible this has occurred Ah, but "they were not real anti-fascists". Have we still not gotten over this line of argument?
  - dependenttypes 6y ago
    > using violence of people who didn't share their politics (politics of genocide). The genocide became widely known after the war had already started. The allies did not join the war out of their goodwill but rather due to their own geopolitical and economic interests - they never intended to stop any genocide (the US engaged in eugenics and mandatory sterilisation and only stopped because hitler did it too - they even put the Japanese living in the US in concentration camps), it was just a side-effect. Regardless (and this is a bit offtopic), I wonder, would you support WWII if only to save people from genocide? In the same spirit would you support war against China in order to save the Uyghurs and other suppressed groups? I personally would reply yes to the first one but I am debating about the second.
- n4r9 6y ago
  Using violence to achieve political goals is not in itself a "hallmark of fascism". From the Gordon Riots, to union riots, to militant suffragettes, history is littered with examples of political change that was expedited by violence. In the UK, the British Union of Fascists organised a march in London in 1936 and were countered by ten times as many people organised by anarchist, communist, socialist and Jewish groups. The ensuing violence sent an extremely clear message that fascism is not welcome in the country.
  - nailer 6y ago
    My post: >> Antifa literally exist to use violence upon people who don't share their politics Your reply: > Using violence to achieve political goals is not in itself a "hallmark of fascism". Agreed. But I didn't write that it was. You live in the UK. How would you compare the IRA of the 1920s with the provos in the 1980s? Would you say they're the same group? They have the same name.
    - n4r9 6y ago
      I'm a bit confused about your argument, then. Antifa aren't violent against just anyone that doesn't share their politics. It's not a single organisation with a uniform political ideology, so that wouldn't make sense. It's more like the practise of aggressive confrontation specifically against authoritarian, right-wing movements, especially those which have some level of support from the state and/or police.
      - nailer 6y ago
        > Antifa aren't violent against just anyone that doesn't share their politics. In my experience (as a mainsteam left person) Antifa consider anyone not on the hard left to be either 'fascists' or 'bootlickers'. Everyone else I know who has had any contact with Antifa has had the same experience. Many Antifa people would say this is an accurate view of anyone who does not share hard left political views.
        n4r9 6y ago
- totalZero 6y ago
  Honestly, I'm not even sure that Antifa exists. I'd never heard anything about such a group being worthy of concern in America until the current president started trying to make white supremacists sound like regular folks. I view rhetoric about Antifa as propaganda from apologists for right-wing extremism. It's their way of saying "he started it!" Any time their culture war comes to blows.
pathseeker 6y ago
>smart enough to learn to code or to polish a pitch to a vc, but lacking any critical thinking skills or morality that would cause them to reflect on their position in society. Sure, people that disagree with your viewpoints lack critical thinking and morality. Painting people who disagree with you as immoral idiots just sounds like you're not able to defend your beliefs.
- lukifer 6y ago
  Obligatory plug for Jonathon Haidt: https://righteousmind.com/ https://righteousmind.com/ People start with moral intuitions first and work backwards to find reasons. Fallacies, ignorance, and sloppy thinking is quasi-deliberate, to satisfy a priori values of what is sacred and what is profane, who are the good people and who are the bad people.
sdkjfhskjfh 6y ago
> smart enough to learn to code You're being far too generous here.

nailer 6y ago

Antifa literally exist to use violence upon people who don't share their politics, which is one of the hallmarks of fascism. Naming yourself "the good guys" doesn't mean anyone who opposes you is bad. It's like if someone said disliking 'Make America Great Again' means you don't want America to be great. Or opposing the Patriot Act makes you not a patriot. You know this, everyone else reading this knows this, stop pretending we don't.

astronautjones 6y ago
no, they don't! what are you talking about? I have been to places where people have to defend themselves from neo nazis coming to beat them up for being gay. it is a label that indicates reactive protection from fascist violence, period
- nailer 6y ago
  I think my post was pretty clear. The fact that nazis exist doesn't invalidate it. Again you probably know this so I'm not going to bother replying further.
  - joshuamorton 6y ago
    Equivocation between literal facicts and people who want to fight literal facists doesn't make a lot of sense. So no, I really, truly have no clue what you're getting at. Like as far as I can tell you're saying "being willing to punch a Nazi makes you a Nazi". Which, like, no.
    - malka 6y ago
      saying antifa = facist is the hallmark of facist supporters.
      - textgel 6y ago
        Claiming an evidently violent group is beyond reproach would raise questions about the morality of the claimant.
        junke 6y ago
        "Beyond reproach", a claim made by whom?
        malka 6y ago
        nobody said they are not beyond reproach. However, they are not facists.
    - barking 6y ago
      Demonising your enemies as racists or fascists, ie nazis and employing mob tactics to "no platform" them or otherwise shut them up as in "no free speech for racists", strike me as exactly the sort of tactics the real fascists employed in the 1930s. So in that sense, yes, Antifa groups/coalitions/collectives/networks frequently behave like fascists. Which is no surprise really if you subscribe to the horseshoe model of the political spectrum.
    - nailer 6y ago
      My post: >> Naming yourself "the good guys" doesn't mean anyone who opposes you is bad. It's like if someone said disliking 'Make America Great Again' means you don't want America to be great. Or opposing the Patriot Act makes you not a patriot. Your reply: > Like as far as I can tell you're saying "being willing to punch a Nazi makes you a Nazi". ok
eirini1 6y ago
I wonder if you also think that the allies forces in ww2 were also fascists for going to war with nazi germany. They were after all, using violence of people who didn't share their politics (politics of genocide). Equivocating someone who wants to commit genocide and someone who wants to stop them from doing so can certainly be done with saying that they both "want to commit violence to people who don't agree with them" but its a very good example where ignoring the political content of an action in favor of the content can lead you to really bizarre statements.
- nailer 6y ago
  > allies forces in ww2 were after all, using violence of people who didn't share their politics (politics of genocide). Antifa use violence on unarmed opponents. Their enemies are anyone who does not share far left politics. I find it very difficult to believe you are not already aware of this.
  - ohbleek 6y ago
    This is provably false. It’s possible this has occurred but exceptions are not the rule and you’re painting with the broadest of brushes.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > This is provably false. I mean, no, it happened, so obviously you cannot prove it didn't happen. > It’s possible this has occurred Ah, but "they were not real anti-fascists". Have we still not gotten over this line of argument?
- dependenttypes 6y ago
  > using violence of people who didn't share their politics (politics of genocide). The genocide became widely known after the war had already started. The allies did not join the war out of their goodwill but rather due to their own geopolitical and economic interests - they never intended to stop any genocide (the US engaged in eugenics and mandatory sterilisation and only stopped because hitler did it too - they even put the Japanese living in the US in concentration camps), it was just a side-effect. Regardless (and this is a bit offtopic), I wonder, would you support WWII if only to save people from genocide? In the same spirit would you support war against China in order to save the Uyghurs and other suppressed groups? I personally would reply yes to the first one but I am debating about the second.
n4r9 6y ago
Using violence to achieve political goals is not in itself a "hallmark of fascism". From the Gordon Riots, to union riots, to militant suffragettes, history is littered with examples of political change that was expedited by violence. In the UK, the British Union of Fascists organised a march in London in 1936 and were countered by ten times as many people organised by anarchist, communist, socialist and Jewish groups. The ensuing violence sent an extremely clear message that fascism is not welcome in the country.
- nailer 6y ago
  My post: >> Antifa literally exist to use violence upon people who don't share their politics Your reply: > Using violence to achieve political goals is not in itself a "hallmark of fascism". Agreed. But I didn't write that it was. You live in the UK. How would you compare the IRA of the 1920s with the provos in the 1980s? Would you say they're the same group? They have the same name.
  - n4r9 6y ago
    I'm a bit confused about your argument, then. Antifa aren't violent against just anyone that doesn't share their politics. It's not a single organisation with a uniform political ideology, so that wouldn't make sense. It's more like the practise of aggressive confrontation specifically against authoritarian, right-wing movements, especially those which have some level of support from the state and/or police.
    - nailer 6y ago
      > Antifa aren't violent against just anyone that doesn't share their politics. In my experience (as a mainsteam left person) Antifa consider anyone not on the hard left to be either 'fascists' or 'bootlickers'. Everyone else I know who has had any contact with Antifa has had the same experience. Many Antifa people would say this is an accurate view of anyone who does not share hard left political views.
      - n4r9 6y ago
totalZero 6y ago
Honestly, I'm not even sure that Antifa exists. I'd never heard anything about such a group being worthy of concern in America until the current president started trying to make white supremacists sound like regular folks. I view rhetoric about Antifa as propaganda from apologists for right-wing extremism. It's their way of saying "he started it!" Any time their culture war comes to blows.

pathseeker 6y ago

>smart enough to learn to code or to polish a pitch to a vc, but lacking any critical thinking skills or morality that would cause them to reflect on their position in society. Sure, people that disagree with your viewpoints lack critical thinking and morality. Painting people who disagree with you as immoral idiots just sounds like you're not able to defend your beliefs.

lukifer 6y ago
Obligatory plug for Jonathon Haidt: https://righteousmind.com/ https://righteousmind.com/ People start with moral intuitions first and work backwards to find reasons. Fallacies, ignorance, and sloppy thinking is quasi-deliberate, to satisfy a priori values of what is sacred and what is profane, who are the good people and who are the bad people.

sdkjfhskjfh 6y ago

> smart enough to learn to code You're being far too generous here.