4 ms·

What? Damn, what's happening here?

renewiltord 6y ago
Sorry, I'll make the connection which was obviously unclear because I skipped a lot of steps. Unions concentrate power. Concentrated power is easy to take hold of (cf. Coup d'Etat, E Luttwak). Lots of SWEs are incredibly xenophobic - can tell in any thread on HN and Reddit on H-1Bs. Xenophobes (of whom there are many) tend to be protectionist. Xenophobic protectionists are very good at holding power. Therefore, given sufficient time, probability of any power structure being taken over by xenophobic protectionists is almost 1. I don't want that. This industry flourishes because it is unbounded. No union. Will dedicate myself to scuttling the union if it gets any reasonable power. Collective bargaining is a powerful tool. I recognize that and think it would be good for good people to have. But the danger is too high here.
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Throwing out the baby with the bathwater, really putting the liberal in neoliberal. Never mind that existing efforts to organize engineers, such as the Tech Workers Coalition, mostly comprise those who often have leftist sympathies, and the caricature nativist union member is mostly an artifact of the 19th century, the above comment both ignores that most modern unions don't end up being xenophobic- are the Teamsters or the SEIU xenophobic?, and international trade unions exist.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    The problem with building a powerful weapon is that one day the weapon may be trained on you. Of course it isn't dangerous when it's just parts. But one day, when you've finished building it, someone will take possession of the weapon, and you won't control where they point it. Jeremy Corbyn has taught me that closing borders and leftist sympathies are not in opposition. And what will you do when that weapon is trained on my friends? Apologize in shock at how your ideals have been usurped? Apologize and say that it was a trade-off that must be made? Say that your priorities have shifted? No, that's not nearly enough. The weapon must simply not be built.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      Jeremy Corbyn lost the election, his chance for higher political power is over, so your fear would seem misplaced. Furthermore, you talk abstractions of political power (ignoring the fact that by participating in the forging of a weapon, you can put in the necessary safeguards and checks and balances to keep it a well-regulated arm), but fail to talk about the realities of working conditions and labor relations. By putting yourself in opposition to such a project, you cede any chance you have to shape the future of it, and stubbornly commit yourself to not building the aforementioned safeguards. You do you, but it sure sounds like an irresponsible abdication of power. At least libertarians who are anti-union because they perceive it as unnecessarily stifling to individualistic workers are honest about it, and don't bandy about some outdated bogeyman of Red Jezza as their excuse for being against unions.
      - renewiltord 6y ago
        He's an example to illustrate that leftist sympathies mean nothing. Not worried about Corbyn anymore, obviously, since he's a spent force. I'm not a political wheeler-dealer. I know where I fall short and I'll be easily bypassed in any attempt to put these safeguards in (even were they possible) by people with vastly more experience and skill at this than me. Anyway, you don't need me, or any of the 2% who are immigrants, to succeed. But go try them, see what they think, if you care. Everyone's seen USTW's Muni ads. Everyone knows that fear lying underneath them. Not a one is convinced by TWC ending up ultimately different. Think what you want if it makes you feel better. When push comes to shove, I'm sure we'll know the truth.
        Apocryphon 6y ago
        USTW are an inflammatory noisy bunch, but their influence- even the public's awareness of their existence- appears to be pretty limited. I've only encountered them before on Twitter because their name is so generic; your comment is literally the only result for "USTW" on this entire website. The current administration's protectionist policies likely do not stem from their lobbying efforts, if any, but from the general nativist attitudes of the incumbent. The U.S. Techworkers is also a very different organization: https://twitter.com/techworkersco/status/974352480740847616 https://twitter.com/techworkersco/status/974352480740847616 > Not a one is convinced by TWC ending up ultimately different. Are they even aware of the existence of the TWC? Or that they're very, very different from the USTW? It's not exactly as if those who might support the latter aren't already vehemently against the latter: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/progressives-immigration-reform-bart-tech-sf-12759617.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/progressives-immigrat... https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2010/10/08/anti-immigrant-groups-continue-greenwashing-campaign https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2010/10/08/anti-immigran... > I'm not a political wheeler-dealer. I know where I fall short and I'll be easily bypassed in any attempt to put these safeguards in (even were they possible) by people with vastly more experience and skill at this than me. The whole point of a union, or a democratic republic, or any sort of participatory organization is that you can join like-minded people to influence the future of the organization. That way, at risk minorities can have their voices heard and participate in a larger project that can protect their interests. That said, all of this academic because the libertarian/atomized individualist current of the tech industry makes the prospect of a tech worker's union more or less near-impossible, so your hysteria is largely baseless. Even if your opinion about U.S. software engineers being largely xenophobic is correct- an assertion that is complicated by the fact that SV SWEs include many immigrants, and an organization like the TWC welcomes H-1B workers into its ranks- it would seem that the USTW's almost complete lack of presence, xenophobic MUNI ads aside, would seem to indicate that individualist instincts trump xenophobia.
sargun 6y ago
No idea about the xenophobia, but RE police unions: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/crime/amp/SF-DA-Chesa-Boudin-colleagues-call-for-State-Bar-15309080.php https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/crime/amp/S...
- EVdotIO 6y ago
  Yeah, I understand police unions, but equating that to SWE collectivizing? That's a massive stretch and some serious whataboutism.

Sorry, I'll make the connection which was obviously unclear because I skipped a lot of steps. Unions concentrate power. Concentrated power is easy to take hold of (cf. Coup d'Etat, E Luttwak). Lots of SWEs are incredibly xenophobic - can tell in any thread on HN and Reddit on H-1Bs. Xenophobes (of whom there are many) tend to be protectionist. Xenophobic protectionists are very good at holding power. Therefore, given sufficient time, probability of any power structure being taken over by xenophobic protectionists is almost 1. I don't want that. This industry flourishes because it is unbounded. No union. Will dedicate myself to scuttling the union if it gets any reasonable power. Collective bargaining is a powerful tool. I recognize that and think it would be good for good people to have. But the danger is too high here.

Apocryphon 6y ago
Throwing out the baby with the bathwater, really putting the liberal in neoliberal. Never mind that existing efforts to organize engineers, such as the Tech Workers Coalition, mostly comprise those who often have leftist sympathies, and the caricature nativist union member is mostly an artifact of the 19th century, the above comment both ignores that most modern unions don't end up being xenophobic- are the Teamsters or the SEIU xenophobic?, and international trade unions exist.
- renewiltord 6y ago
  The problem with building a powerful weapon is that one day the weapon may be trained on you. Of course it isn't dangerous when it's just parts. But one day, when you've finished building it, someone will take possession of the weapon, and you won't control where they point it. Jeremy Corbyn has taught me that closing borders and leftist sympathies are not in opposition. And what will you do when that weapon is trained on my friends? Apologize in shock at how your ideals have been usurped? Apologize and say that it was a trade-off that must be made? Say that your priorities have shifted? No, that's not nearly enough. The weapon must simply not be built.
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Jeremy Corbyn lost the election, his chance for higher political power is over, so your fear would seem misplaced. Furthermore, you talk abstractions of political power (ignoring the fact that by participating in the forging of a weapon, you can put in the necessary safeguards and checks and balances to keep it a well-regulated arm), but fail to talk about the realities of working conditions and labor relations. By putting yourself in opposition to such a project, you cede any chance you have to shape the future of it, and stubbornly commit yourself to not building the aforementioned safeguards. You do you, but it sure sounds like an irresponsible abdication of power. At least libertarians who are anti-union because they perceive it as unnecessarily stifling to individualistic workers are honest about it, and don't bandy about some outdated bogeyman of Red Jezza as their excuse for being against unions.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      He's an example to illustrate that leftist sympathies mean nothing. Not worried about Corbyn anymore, obviously, since he's a spent force. I'm not a political wheeler-dealer. I know where I fall short and I'll be easily bypassed in any attempt to put these safeguards in (even were they possible) by people with vastly more experience and skill at this than me. Anyway, you don't need me, or any of the 2% who are immigrants, to succeed. But go try them, see what they think, if you care. Everyone's seen USTW's Muni ads. Everyone knows that fear lying underneath them. Not a one is convinced by TWC ending up ultimately different. Think what you want if it makes you feel better. When push comes to shove, I'm sure we'll know the truth.
      - Apocryphon 6y ago
        USTW are an inflammatory noisy bunch, but their influence- even the public's awareness of their existence- appears to be pretty limited. I've only encountered them before on Twitter because their name is so generic; your comment is literally the only result for "USTW" on this entire website. The current administration's protectionist policies likely do not stem from their lobbying efforts, if any, but from the general nativist attitudes of the incumbent. The U.S. Techworkers is also a very different organization: https://twitter.com/techworkersco/status/974352480740847616 https://twitter.com/techworkersco/status/974352480740847616 > Not a one is convinced by TWC ending up ultimately different. Are they even aware of the existence of the TWC? Or that they're very, very different from the USTW? It's not exactly as if those who might support the latter aren't already vehemently against the latter: https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/progressives-immigration-reform-bart-tech-sf-12759617.php https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/progressives-immigrat... https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2010/10/08/anti-immigrant-groups-continue-greenwashing-campaign https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2010/10/08/anti-immigran... > I'm not a political wheeler-dealer. I know where I fall short and I'll be easily bypassed in any attempt to put these safeguards in (even were they possible) by people with vastly more experience and skill at this than me. The whole point of a union, or a democratic republic, or any sort of participatory organization is that you can join like-minded people to influence the future of the organization. That way, at risk minorities can have their voices heard and participate in a larger project that can protect their interests. That said, all of this academic because the libertarian/atomized individualist current of the tech industry makes the prospect of a tech worker's union more or less near-impossible, so your hysteria is largely baseless. Even if your opinion about U.S. software engineers being largely xenophobic is correct- an assertion that is complicated by the fact that SV SWEs include many immigrants, and an organization like the TWC welcomes H-1B workers into its ranks- it would seem that the USTW's almost complete lack of presence, xenophobic MUNI ads aside, would seem to indicate that individualist instincts trump xenophobia.

sargun 6y ago

No idea about the xenophobia, but RE police unions: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/crime/amp/SF-DA-Chesa-Boudin-colleagues-call-for-State-Bar-15309080.php https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sfchronicle.com/crime/amp/S...

EVdotIO 6y ago
Yeah, I understand police unions, but equating that to SWE collectivizing? That's a massive stretch and some serious whataboutism.