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1. It's my understanding that doctors and lawyers have professional organizations, which aren't really the same thing as a union. 2. Unions and professional or

1. It's my understanding that doctors and lawyers have professional organizations, which aren't really the same thing as a union. 2. Unions and professional organizations, and really all organizations intended to consolidate power for one group over another, have both good points and bad. Obviously, unions have played an important role in improving worker safety and security, and that's great. But they've also contributed negatively in some ways. Not wishing to organize under as part of a union is not necessarily irrational; it may just be a different weight applied to the varies effects said organizations have.

bildung 6y ago
Unions are also the reason why most other industrial countries have mandatory holidays, sick leave, parental leave and so on.
- logicchains 6y ago
  That's not a very good argument in this case because the average Silicon Valley tech worker has a better take home salary than a programmer in those countries even after accounting for education/childcare and insurance costs.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - bildung 6y ago
    Take home pay certainly isn't the metric that is improved here, but rather pay per hour. How many hours per year does a Silicon Valley tech worker work? Absolute pay e.g. in Germany is significantly less, but then the absolute hours worked in a full time job are probably 800 hours less per year than in Silicon Valley: 6 weeks of paid holiday are standard in tech here, plus e.g. 2 weeks paid sick leave because of the flu, plus 4 weeks of paid sick leave with the kids, and a work week is actually 40 hours (or less).
    - david38 6y ago
      I work in the valley. I take about six weeks. I stay home whenever I’m sick. Even if you assume I work 60 hours a week, I still make quite a bit more than I would in Germany. Even including health care. So yes, my per hour rate is better in Silicon Valley.
    - renewiltord 6y ago
      For the better part of a decade I have worked in SF at startups. You know what I say when I'm sick? "Hey, guys, I'm sick. I'm going to sleep it off." No doctor's note, no accou This has never not been the case. Number of unions? 0. Some of my co-workers from my previous employer are currently still on classes paid for by that previous employer. Levels.fyi has median German comp at $95k (net $61k), median SF comp at $236k (net $151k). We'll just use your numbers for the time spent: Berlin: 52 - 6 - 2 - 4 = 40 weeks = 40 * 5 * 8 hours. Net hourly wage = $38/hr SF: We will assume they work full 52 weeks, and they work 10 hours a day, and every day of the week = 52 * 7 * 10 hours. Net hourly wage = $41/hr Okay, so if they never take a day off and they work 10 hours every day they still make more. Now that's being generous to your claim.
      - Apocryphon 6y ago
        And you expect this will continue indefinitely? Especially if the economy slips into a recession?
        renewiltord 6y ago
        I expect nothing except of myself that I am adaptable to uncertain circumstances. Certainly collective bargaining will allow me to extract a greater portion of the value should things go poorly for everyone. I think a union would be a useful tool to ensure that, say, the needs of the majority of participants are met as things fall apart. But that's for the majority, which given the ability will rent-seek over their sole control of employment by harming the minority: new participants, immigrants, those with relatively little power through ethnic/cultural/historical accident. Of course, one could attempt to construct an organization that doesn't have these flaws, but I suspect the greater part of possible participants desire these things I call flaws. So, given institutional oppression vs. the natural oppression of the markets? I choose the natural oppression. We will both swim in the stormy ocean and luck and strength and perseverance will choose one of us. So be it.
  - csharptwdec19 6y ago
    Duh. That's the carrot to keep them in line. If they were paid closer to what devs outside SV were paid they might decide it's worth it to speak up.
  - bawolff 6y ago
    What's the value of money if you are too stressed to enjoy it?
iscrewyou 6y ago
> 1. It's my understanding that doctors and lawyers have professional organizations, which aren't really the same thing as a union. False. Professional organization give licensure. The union represents those who have licenses and or work for an agency where majority of those license holders work. > 2. ...Obviously, unions have played an important role in improving worker safety and security, and that's great. But they've also contributed negatively in some ways... You can add a "not having a union" in that sentence and flip those contradictory sentences and they still don't mean anything. It's not about not wishing to organize. It's about coming up with a few set goals that the union can represent. Then the members vote on what else is there that is important to majority of the members. Unions work like a democracy. There's some shortcomings but the overall outcome is beneficial to the people being represented.
- RHSeeger 6y ago
  > Unions work like a democracy. The problem is that "other things" come out of it too. Being required to pay someone for an hour of time to vacuum the carpet around your display at a trade show or plug in a lamp (because you're not allowed to do it yourself). People being threatened with physical violence (or actually being subject to it) because they don't agree with the union. These things do happen and, to many people, they are a serious concern. > There's some shortcomings but the overall outcome is beneficial to the people being represented That is a matter of opinion, and also ignores what's best for society as a whole (which also matters to a lot of people). Just because something is best for the workers doesn't mean it's the best choice for a functioning society. I'm not arguing for or against unions here, just point out that they're not all rainbows and birthday cakes. Deciding to consider the facts and come up with your own opinion doesn't mean you're a bad person, or irrational.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
  > False. Professional organization give licensure. The union represents those who have licenses and or work for an agency where majority of those license holders work. Incorrect! Most doctors are probably solo or group practice. This means one or a few doctors work together in a business that they own. This business then contracts with hospitals to provide services. Kaiser Permanente is different in that it hires doctors directly, but it is the minority. The AMA (American Medical Association) is not a union and does not negotiate on behalf of doctors. It is more a lobbying and advocacy group.

bildung 6y ago

Unions are also the reason why most other industrial countries have mandatory holidays, sick leave, parental leave and so on.

logicchains 6y ago
That's not a very good argument in this case because the average Silicon Valley tech worker has a better take home salary than a programmer in those countries even after accounting for education/childcare and insurance costs.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- bildung 6y ago
  Take home pay certainly isn't the metric that is improved here, but rather pay per hour. How many hours per year does a Silicon Valley tech worker work? Absolute pay e.g. in Germany is significantly less, but then the absolute hours worked in a full time job are probably 800 hours less per year than in Silicon Valley: 6 weeks of paid holiday are standard in tech here, plus e.g. 2 weeks paid sick leave because of the flu, plus 4 weeks of paid sick leave with the kids, and a work week is actually 40 hours (or less).
  - david38 6y ago
    I work in the valley. I take about six weeks. I stay home whenever I’m sick. Even if you assume I work 60 hours a week, I still make quite a bit more than I would in Germany. Even including health care. So yes, my per hour rate is better in Silicon Valley.
  - renewiltord 6y ago
    For the better part of a decade I have worked in SF at startups. You know what I say when I'm sick? "Hey, guys, I'm sick. I'm going to sleep it off." No doctor's note, no accou This has never not been the case. Number of unions? 0. Some of my co-workers from my previous employer are currently still on classes paid for by that previous employer. Levels.fyi has median German comp at $95k (net $61k), median SF comp at $236k (net $151k). We'll just use your numbers for the time spent: Berlin: 52 - 6 - 2 - 4 = 40 weeks = 40 * 5 * 8 hours. Net hourly wage = $38/hr SF: We will assume they work full 52 weeks, and they work 10 hours a day, and every day of the week = 52 * 7 * 10 hours. Net hourly wage = $41/hr Okay, so if they never take a day off and they work 10 hours every day they still make more. Now that's being generous to your claim.
    - Apocryphon 6y ago
      And you expect this will continue indefinitely? Especially if the economy slips into a recession?
      - renewiltord 6y ago
        I expect nothing except of myself that I am adaptable to uncertain circumstances. Certainly collective bargaining will allow me to extract a greater portion of the value should things go poorly for everyone. I think a union would be a useful tool to ensure that, say, the needs of the majority of participants are met as things fall apart. But that's for the majority, which given the ability will rent-seek over their sole control of employment by harming the minority: new participants, immigrants, those with relatively little power through ethnic/cultural/historical accident. Of course, one could attempt to construct an organization that doesn't have these flaws, but I suspect the greater part of possible participants desire these things I call flaws. So, given institutional oppression vs. the natural oppression of the markets? I choose the natural oppression. We will both swim in the stormy ocean and luck and strength and perseverance will choose one of us. So be it.
- csharptwdec19 6y ago
  Duh. That's the carrot to keep them in line. If they were paid closer to what devs outside SV were paid they might decide it's worth it to speak up.
- bawolff 6y ago
  What's the value of money if you are too stressed to enjoy it?

iscrewyou 6y ago

> 1. It's my understanding that doctors and lawyers have professional organizations, which aren't really the same thing as a union. False. Professional organization give licensure. The union represents those who have licenses and or work for an agency where majority of those license holders work. > 2. ...Obviously, unions have played an important role in improving worker safety and security, and that's great. But they've also contributed negatively in some ways... You can add a "not having a union" in that sentence and flip those contradictory sentences and they still don't mean anything. It's not about not wishing to organize. It's about coming up with a few set goals that the union can represent. Then the members vote on what else is there that is important to majority of the members. Unions work like a democracy. There's some shortcomings but the overall outcome is beneficial to the people being represented.

RHSeeger 6y ago
> Unions work like a democracy. The problem is that "other things" come out of it too. Being required to pay someone for an hour of time to vacuum the carpet around your display at a trade show or plug in a lamp (because you're not allowed to do it yourself). People being threatened with physical violence (or actually being subject to it) because they don't agree with the union. These things do happen and, to many people, they are a serious concern. > There's some shortcomings but the overall outcome is beneficial to the people being represented That is a matter of opinion, and also ignores what's best for society as a whole (which also matters to a lot of people). Just because something is best for the workers doesn't mean it's the best choice for a functioning society. I'm not arguing for or against unions here, just point out that they're not all rainbows and birthday cakes. Deciding to consider the facts and come up with your own opinion doesn't mean you're a bad person, or irrational.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 6y ago
> False. Professional organization give licensure. The union represents those who have licenses and or work for an agency where majority of those license holders work. Incorrect! Most doctors are probably solo or group practice. This means one or a few doctors work together in a business that they own. This business then contracts with hospitals to provide services. Kaiser Permanente is different in that it hires doctors directly, but it is the minority. The AMA (American Medical Association) is not a union and does not negotiate on behalf of doctors. It is more a lobbying and advocacy group.