6 ms·

> Would you feel that way if they came and burned your house or business down? Yup, and I have the receipts to prove it: my motorcycle was vandalized in Oaklan

> Would you feel that way if they came and burned your house or business down? Yup, and I have the receipts to prove it: my motorcycle was vandalized in Oakland during the protests. A small price to pay for unsung voices being heard. You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them.

scruple 6y ago
Your motorcycle isn't your shelter and vandalism isn't typically complete destruction.
- komali2 6y ago
  > Your motorcycle isn't your shelter Not seen news come out of people's homes destroyed. If we're going to participate in a damages competition, though, let's do that - the cops shot out a couple people's eyeballs, but only after of course kicking off this whole thing by murdering black people with no consequences. There, that settles that.
  - scruple 6y ago
    No it doesn't... https://www.nbc12.com/2020/05/31/its-unacceptable-richmond-police-chief-gets-emotional-while-talking-about-protests/ https://www.nbc12.com/2020/05/31/its-unacceptable-richmond-p... https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1267120254104330242/pu/vid/1264x720/0Rs_g68T9NLyAaDv.mp4 https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1267120254104330242/pu/...
  - stcredzero 6y ago
    If we're going to participate in a damages competition, though, let's do that No. The Gandhi movie termed that, "An eye for an eye, making the whole world blind." How about we condemn evil, and try to make sure there's less evil in the world? Just because you say you're fighting evil, that doesn't nominate you to commit evil, especially if it's in the name of others without their consent. Especially if it's so you can coerce others into seeing things your particular way. Isn't that what sparked the protests in the first place? Someone who committed evil, in the name of fighting evil?
  - kuzimoto 6y ago
    > murdering black people with no consequences. Can you elaborate? All four of the police officers were immediately fired. The primary officer that was kneeling on him was charged with murder and manslaughter and will go to prison. Likely charges will be brought on the other three.
    - TuringNYC 6y ago
      >> Can you elaborate? All four of the police officers were immediately fired. The primary officer that was kneeling on him was charged with murder and manslaughter and will go to prison. Likely charges will be brought on the other three. How is it sustainable that nationwide protests need to happen before an officer is charged for murder? Does that not seem like a broken system?
    - komali2 6y ago
      Only after a police station was burned down. Lord forbid nobody caught the murder on video. This happens all over America, all the time. Thread is full of links or a quick hop on google will serve you in this regard. What would have happened if it was citizens? All four would be in jail immediately, if they even get that far without being shot for "resisting arrest" first. At the very least they'd get a beating somewhere between having cuffs put on them and getting into a squad car. We know this from all the recorded instances of police brutality looking exactly as I've just described. Lost their jobs. Come on. Would you merely "lose your job" if you watched your buddy murder a guy and stood there throughout the whole thing?
      - kuzimoto 6y ago
        > Only after a police station was burned down. I feel like that's more coincidence than anything > This happens all over America, all the time. Thread is full of links or a quick hop on google will serve you in this regard I bet there is tons of anecdotal data to support any claim. There needs to be aggregated data that shows it's happening in high enough rates to be a "systemic" issue. > Would you merely "lose your job" if you watched your buddy murder a guy and stood there throughout the whole thing? In most countries bystanders are not obligated to assist. So nothing would happen to you?
stcredzero 6y ago
You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. The state should have the monopoly on violence. Then, instead of everyone doing violence, we have certain, appointed people given the responsibility who can then be trained and monitored. This is part and parcel of the Rule of Law. Certainly, this system isn't perfect. But you only have to live in a country or region without Rule of Law to know that it's much preferable to improve the system, than to abandon it. Yup, and I have the receipts to prove it: my motorcycle was vandalized in Oakland during the protests. A small price to pay for unsung voices being heard Are you going to speak for the elderly woman who was beaten by a 2x4, or her husband who was beaten when he came to protect her? Are you going to speak for the independent owner of the vintage clothing store in LA who was preparing to re-open and had his windows smashed and his inventory stolen? Can you determine who will pay, and what "price" they will pay? Have you ever criticized someone for their callous opinions on these matters, because it doesn't affect them so much? Well, perhaps the tenor of your opinion is connected to your not being affected so much. Your circumstances just happen to afford you that privilege.
- ncallaway 6y ago
  > Then, instead of everyone doing violence, we have certain, appointed people given the responsibility who can then be trained and monitored What if those people don't do it according to the law or in a just manner? We just all say: "oh well, they have a monopoly on force, so nothing to be done"? You probably think it was quite rude to separate from the British at all. Perhaps we should go back to being a colony, since the separation was actually a complete violation of the crown's monopoly on violence!
- komali2 6y ago
  > Are you going to speak for the elderly woman who was beaten by a 2x4, or her husband who was beaten when he came to protect her? Are you going to speak for the independent owner of the vintage clothing store in LA who was preparing to re-open and had his windows smashed and his inventory stolen? Sure, I will - it's a shame that the cops refused to follow the science on the subject and deescelate protests. Instead they chose to fire on peaceful protesters and kick off a riot. It's not like this kind of shit isn't studied. What article are we commenting on right now? This information has been available for a very, very long time. So, to everyone that has been harmed by the police, directly (having their eyes shot out, being choked to death), or indirectly (property damage due to an avoidable riot), I think the police should be held responsible.
kuzimoto 6y ago
> You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. When you commit a crime and violate someone's freemdoms (the primary being right to life, liberty, property), you forfeit your own. When you kill someone and take their life, you steal or destroy property, you are now in debt to society. By living in a society you agree to its rules and when the rules are broken a price must be paid to deter others from breaking them. Just because someone broke the rules, doesn't mean that everyone else gets to. The police officer was in the wrong. He was arrested, and charged. He will pay for what he did. Be the change you want to see. Protest in a way that doesn't harm others. Many lost business and their livelihoods due to the destruction. What did they do to deserve that?
- boomboomsubban 6y ago
  >primary being right to life, liberty, property), How does the "pursuit of happiness" become "property?"
  - kuzimoto 6y ago
    I think a better question is how did "property" become "the pursuit of happiness"? I believe that property rights are a core principal of American freedoms. Otherwise there would not be 'just compensation' for it in the constitution.
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      The Fifth Amendment came around fifteen years after the Declaration of Independence.
- TuringNYC 6y ago
  >> The police officer was in the wrong. He was arrested, and charged. He will pay for what he did. "He will pay for what he did." You seem to have certain knowledge of the future. Dismissively saying everything will be OK does not actually make it happen. I'm only going from past experience: If anything is learned from the many times this story has played out in the past, the cops wont wont pay. In fact, until an independent investigation: the cops were well on their way to freedom: "The criminal complaint said that the autopsy “revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” Mr. Floyd, the complaint said, had underlying health conditions, including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease." https://www.nytimes.com/article/george-floyd-autopsy-michael-baden.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/george-floyd-autopsy-michael... These are things people are protesting: 0. That a video has to exist 1. That nationwide protests need to happen before an officer is charged 2. That when it happens, many non-PoC say "oh he probably did something wrong [thus i dont care if the alleged criminal was killed]" 3. That when it happens, non-PoC say "oh it will be OK" knowing full well their own children will never be subject to this type of treatment. People are not angry about this incident only they are angry about it happening over and over and over w/o any real systemic change.

scruple 6y ago

Your motorcycle isn't your shelter and vandalism isn't typically complete destruction.

komali2 6y ago
> Your motorcycle isn't your shelter Not seen news come out of people's homes destroyed. If we're going to participate in a damages competition, though, let's do that - the cops shot out a couple people's eyeballs, but only after of course kicking off this whole thing by murdering black people with no consequences. There, that settles that.
- scruple 6y ago
  No it doesn't... https://www.nbc12.com/2020/05/31/its-unacceptable-richmond-police-chief-gets-emotional-while-talking-about-protests/ https://www.nbc12.com/2020/05/31/its-unacceptable-richmond-p... https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1267120254104330242/pu/vid/1264x720/0Rs_g68T9NLyAaDv.mp4 https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1267120254104330242/pu/...
- stcredzero 6y ago
  If we're going to participate in a damages competition, though, let's do that No. The Gandhi movie termed that, "An eye for an eye, making the whole world blind." How about we condemn evil, and try to make sure there's less evil in the world? Just because you say you're fighting evil, that doesn't nominate you to commit evil, especially if it's in the name of others without their consent. Especially if it's so you can coerce others into seeing things your particular way. Isn't that what sparked the protests in the first place? Someone who committed evil, in the name of fighting evil?
- kuzimoto 6y ago
  > murdering black people with no consequences. Can you elaborate? All four of the police officers were immediately fired. The primary officer that was kneeling on him was charged with murder and manslaughter and will go to prison. Likely charges will be brought on the other three.
  - TuringNYC 6y ago
    >> Can you elaborate? All four of the police officers were immediately fired. The primary officer that was kneeling on him was charged with murder and manslaughter and will go to prison. Likely charges will be brought on the other three. How is it sustainable that nationwide protests need to happen before an officer is charged for murder? Does that not seem like a broken system?
  - komali2 6y ago
    Only after a police station was burned down. Lord forbid nobody caught the murder on video. This happens all over America, all the time. Thread is full of links or a quick hop on google will serve you in this regard. What would have happened if it was citizens? All four would be in jail immediately, if they even get that far without being shot for "resisting arrest" first. At the very least they'd get a beating somewhere between having cuffs put on them and getting into a squad car. We know this from all the recorded instances of police brutality looking exactly as I've just described. Lost their jobs. Come on. Would you merely "lose your job" if you watched your buddy murder a guy and stood there throughout the whole thing?
    - kuzimoto 6y ago
      > Only after a police station was burned down. I feel like that's more coincidence than anything > This happens all over America, all the time. Thread is full of links or a quick hop on google will serve you in this regard I bet there is tons of anecdotal data to support any claim. There needs to be aggregated data that shows it's happening in high enough rates to be a "systemic" issue. > Would you merely "lose your job" if you watched your buddy murder a guy and stood there throughout the whole thing? In most countries bystanders are not obligated to assist. So nothing would happen to you?

stcredzero 6y ago

You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. The state should have the monopoly on violence. Then, instead of everyone doing violence, we have certain, appointed people given the responsibility who can then be trained and monitored. This is part and parcel of the Rule of Law. Certainly, this system isn't perfect. But you only have to live in a country or region without Rule of Law to know that it's much preferable to improve the system, than to abandon it. Yup, and I have the receipts to prove it: my motorcycle was vandalized in Oakland during the protests. A small price to pay for unsung voices being heard Are you going to speak for the elderly woman who was beaten by a 2x4, or her husband who was beaten when he came to protect her? Are you going to speak for the independent owner of the vintage clothing store in LA who was preparing to re-open and had his windows smashed and his inventory stolen? Can you determine who will pay, and what "price" they will pay? Have you ever criticized someone for their callous opinions on these matters, because it doesn't affect them so much? Well, perhaps the tenor of your opinion is connected to your not being affected so much. Your circumstances just happen to afford you that privilege.

ncallaway 6y ago
> Then, instead of everyone doing violence, we have certain, appointed people given the responsibility who can then be trained and monitored What if those people don't do it according to the law or in a just manner? We just all say: "oh well, they have a monopoly on force, so nothing to be done"? You probably think it was quite rude to separate from the British at all. Perhaps we should go back to being a colony, since the separation was actually a complete violation of the crown's monopoly on violence!
komali2 6y ago
> Are you going to speak for the elderly woman who was beaten by a 2x4, or her husband who was beaten when he came to protect her? Are you going to speak for the independent owner of the vintage clothing store in LA who was preparing to re-open and had his windows smashed and his inventory stolen? Sure, I will - it's a shame that the cops refused to follow the science on the subject and deescelate protests. Instead they chose to fire on peaceful protesters and kick off a riot. It's not like this kind of shit isn't studied. What article are we commenting on right now? This information has been available for a very, very long time. So, to everyone that has been harmed by the police, directly (having their eyes shot out, being choked to death), or indirectly (property damage due to an avoidable riot), I think the police should be held responsible.

kuzimoto 6y ago

> You say violence is violence, yet I bet you have no problem with criminals being put in jail, i.e. their freedoms being violently removed from them. When you commit a crime and violate someone's freemdoms (the primary being right to life, liberty, property), you forfeit your own. When you kill someone and take their life, you steal or destroy property, you are now in debt to society. By living in a society you agree to its rules and when the rules are broken a price must be paid to deter others from breaking them. Just because someone broke the rules, doesn't mean that everyone else gets to. The police officer was in the wrong. He was arrested, and charged. He will pay for what he did. Be the change you want to see. Protest in a way that doesn't harm others. Many lost business and their livelihoods due to the destruction. What did they do to deserve that?

boomboomsubban 6y ago
>primary being right to life, liberty, property), How does the "pursuit of happiness" become "property?"
- kuzimoto 6y ago
  I think a better question is how did "property" become "the pursuit of happiness"? I believe that property rights are a core principal of American freedoms. Otherwise there would not be 'just compensation' for it in the constitution.
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    The Fifth Amendment came around fifteen years after the Declaration of Independence.
TuringNYC 6y ago
>> The police officer was in the wrong. He was arrested, and charged. He will pay for what he did. "He will pay for what he did." You seem to have certain knowledge of the future. Dismissively saying everything will be OK does not actually make it happen. I'm only going from past experience: If anything is learned from the many times this story has played out in the past, the cops wont wont pay. In fact, until an independent investigation: the cops were well on their way to freedom: "The criminal complaint said that the autopsy “revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.” Mr. Floyd, the complaint said, had underlying health conditions, including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease." https://www.nytimes.com/article/george-floyd-autopsy-michael-baden.html https://www.nytimes.com/article/george-floyd-autopsy-michael... These are things people are protesting: 0. That a video has to exist 1. That nationwide protests need to happen before an officer is charged 2. That when it happens, many non-PoC say "oh he probably did something wrong [thus i dont care if the alleged criminal was killed]" 3. That when it happens, non-PoC say "oh it will be OK" knowing full well their own children will never be subject to this type of treatment. People are not angry about this incident only they are angry about it happening over and over and over w/o any real systemic change.