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This is such a pet-peeve for me. A noisy network service turned on by default where most users won't use it,but all users are exposed to the network through it.

This is such a pet-peeve for me. A noisy network service turned on by default where most users won't use it,but all users are exposed to the network through it. (Edit: I mean in most Linux Distros not in this example, of course I have no problem with anyone intentionally doing anything to their own system) In my opinion, modern systems shouldn't run services in case something needs them, they should be dynamically loaded and unloaded (isn't this what dbus is for??). If Chrome needs mDNS it can ask for it. If network resources are accessed at login, the login processes can request avahi to be loaded and then unloaded once they're done. What really feels like insult to injury is how systemd was forced on unwilling users because of features like this, yet avahi,cups,etc... Just sit there idle even if you didn't start any application that has a need for them. I think maybe I am seeing it from the wrong perspective?

rlpb 6y ago
> A noisy network service turned on by default... It's not installed by default in the author's example; they specifically install it in the Docker image. > In my opinion, modern systems shouldn't run services in case something needs them, they should be dynamically loaded and unloaded (isn't this what dbus is for??). That's exactly how it works in Debian today. > ...how systemd was forced on unwilling users because of features like this... systemd wasn't forced on anyone. If you're an "unwilling user", use a distribution that doesn't use systemd! But systemd does support socket activation, which is the exact feature you're claiming doesn't exist!
- badrabbit 6y ago
  I meant on distros not on OP's example. > systemd wasn't forced on anyone. If you're an "unwilling user", use a distribution that doesn't use systemd! But systemd does support socket activation, which is the exact feature you're claiming doesn't exist! It was forced on existing users. If someone gives you the choice between moving to a different house or accepting something and staying where you are, if you don't like that thing you just got forced out of your house,if you accept that thing you were forced into accepting it. If someone puts a gun to your head and asks for your money, the fact that you can chose to die does not mean your money was not taken from you by force when you opt to live. I did not claim socket activation does not exist, I even mentiones dbus as a way. I said it was not being used, services are just left running. Even GPG has a service that just idles.
dreamcompiler 6y ago
> This is such a pet-peeve for me. A noisy network service... Complaints like this about mDNS are my pet peeve. Back in the day networks were 1000 times slower and we had Appletalk and dynamic peer-to-peer LAN networking was absolutely effortless. It was plug-and-play, networking-for-dummies easy. And nobody had to explain to their Mom over the phone what an IP address was. But Appletalk was chatty and that bugged people with large enterprise LANs. So Apple turned it off and invented mDNS which was less chatty and used modern DNS protocols. It made LAN setup about half as easy as Appletalk but by that time everybody had gotten used to typing IP addresses into their printers as if that was "normal." Or they just gave up on peer-to-peer connections entirely. So now not many people use mDNS and it's not nearly as chatty as Appletalk and our networks are 1000 times faster and a tiny bit of LAN traffic is nothing; nothing compared to the value mDNS would bring if people just used it. But no. Let's complain about how chatty it is and continue using LANs full of multi-teraflop computers that have no way to ask their neighbors what their damned IP addresses are. Yes I'm bitter.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  Look, I will never ever use mDNS. I have never ever needed to use mDNS because I don't mind using an IP address. We have our preferences but why are you forcing your preference on people? I am very bitter about this too. I turn on a computer and it broadcasts excessive details about itself to anyone that will listen to it.it does things I did not ask it to do and refuses to do things I need it to do because people like you think there is one way everyone should do things. What on earth is stopping you from turning on Avahi and using mDNS right now? Clicking on a checkbox in system settings? What else is there to it? I will continue to complain on how chatty this and a plethora of other things are. Actually their chattiness is not the issue, the fact that they sent even one packet of that protocol is my issue, or more importantly that they listened on that port offerinf network services on my client computer. So, now when there's a vulnerability abusing that service, a service no one uses, well too bad then right? A network service is an exposure, people/apps should opt into not opt out of exposures!
m463 6y ago
I agree with you. Personally, I wish there was a way at install time to completely opt-out of these unneeded and overpromiscuous services. My linux machines don't print, I don't use any peer-to-peer dns on any of my machines, I don't need advanced routing protocols, etc... Another thing I notice is an ubuntu machine I'm using runs 10-15 evolution contacts/calendars/etc processes and all I do on that machine is compile.
- badrabbit 6y ago
  Yes, even windows asks you if it's a private and public network and if you want to allow sharing,etc... This doesn't need to be controversial, an install time checkbox to enable/disable these services can decide this for the user. And I will bet good money most users will opt-out. Just like telemetery.

rlpb 6y ago

> A noisy network service turned on by default... It's not installed by default in the author's example; they specifically install it in the Docker image. > In my opinion, modern systems shouldn't run services in case something needs them, they should be dynamically loaded and unloaded (isn't this what dbus is for??). That's exactly how it works in Debian today. > ...how systemd was forced on unwilling users because of features like this... systemd wasn't forced on anyone. If you're an "unwilling user", use a distribution that doesn't use systemd! But systemd does support socket activation, which is the exact feature you're claiming doesn't exist!

badrabbit 6y ago
I meant on distros not on OP's example. > systemd wasn't forced on anyone. If you're an "unwilling user", use a distribution that doesn't use systemd! But systemd does support socket activation, which is the exact feature you're claiming doesn't exist! It was forced on existing users. If someone gives you the choice between moving to a different house or accepting something and staying where you are, if you don't like that thing you just got forced out of your house,if you accept that thing you were forced into accepting it. If someone puts a gun to your head and asks for your money, the fact that you can chose to die does not mean your money was not taken from you by force when you opt to live. I did not claim socket activation does not exist, I even mentiones dbus as a way. I said it was not being used, services are just left running. Even GPG has a service that just idles.

dreamcompiler 6y ago

> This is such a pet-peeve for me. A noisy network service... Complaints like this about mDNS are my pet peeve. Back in the day networks were 1000 times slower and we had Appletalk and dynamic peer-to-peer LAN networking was absolutely effortless. It was plug-and-play, networking-for-dummies easy. And nobody had to explain to their Mom over the phone what an IP address was. But Appletalk was chatty and that bugged people with large enterprise LANs. So Apple turned it off and invented mDNS which was less chatty and used modern DNS protocols. It made LAN setup about half as easy as Appletalk but by that time everybody had gotten used to typing IP addresses into their printers as if that was "normal." Or they just gave up on peer-to-peer connections entirely. So now not many people use mDNS and it's not nearly as chatty as Appletalk and our networks are 1000 times faster and a tiny bit of LAN traffic is nothing; nothing compared to the value mDNS would bring if people just used it. But no. Let's complain about how chatty it is and continue using LANs full of multi-teraflop computers that have no way to ask their neighbors what their damned IP addresses are. Yes I'm bitter.

badrabbit 6y ago
Look, I will never ever use mDNS. I have never ever needed to use mDNS because I don't mind using an IP address. We have our preferences but why are you forcing your preference on people? I am very bitter about this too. I turn on a computer and it broadcasts excessive details about itself to anyone that will listen to it.it does things I did not ask it to do and refuses to do things I need it to do because people like you think there is one way everyone should do things. What on earth is stopping you from turning on Avahi and using mDNS right now? Clicking on a checkbox in system settings? What else is there to it? I will continue to complain on how chatty this and a plethora of other things are. Actually their chattiness is not the issue, the fact that they sent even one packet of that protocol is my issue, or more importantly that they listened on that port offerinf network services on my client computer. So, now when there's a vulnerability abusing that service, a service no one uses, well too bad then right? A network service is an exposure, people/apps should opt into not opt out of exposures!

m463 6y ago

I agree with you. Personally, I wish there was a way at install time to completely opt-out of these unneeded and overpromiscuous services. My linux machines don't print, I don't use any peer-to-peer dns on any of my machines, I don't need advanced routing protocols, etc... Another thing I notice is an ubuntu machine I'm using runs 10-15 evolution contacts/calendars/etc processes and all I do on that machine is compile.

badrabbit 6y ago
Yes, even windows asks you if it's a private and public network and if you want to allow sharing,etc... This doesn't need to be controversial, an install time checkbox to enable/disable these services can decide this for the user. And I will bet good money most users will opt-out. Just like telemetery.