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I have always suspected that US police are shunted into sub-optimal patterns because there are so many guns here that the odds a simple interaction will involve

I have always suspected that US police are shunted into sub-optimal patterns because there are so many guns here that the odds a simple interaction will involve a firearm are much higher than they are in less-well-armed societies. Does anybody know if I'm right about that? That doesn't mean that they can't do more de-escalation or take other steps, but the high prevalence of guns does seem like it would be a contributing factor. (I realize this touches a hot topic (guns) but it's an honest question, and sympathetic to law enforcement.)

Shacklz 6y ago
> will involve a firearm are much higher than they are in less-well-armed societies. Does anybody know if I'm right about that? Switzerland (disclaimer; I'm Swiss) has also lots of weapons around, but if the police are ever shooting someone it's usually big news with investigations on whether it was really necessary. From my laymen point of view, police training and holding them accountable to their actions is probably even a bigger factor than gun availability (although this is certainly a factor too). If I'm not mistaken, Swiss police training strongly encourages to back off if someone draws a weapon, trying to keep it cool, talk softly/slowly etc. It seems that in the US, the first hint of a weapon will result in drawn weapons by police and a 'drop your weapon'-shouting-contest; that's at least what seems to often happen in footage that ends up in the news where something goes wrong and someone ends up being dead. Edit: One of the more memorable examples I saw was a video via NYT, where some guy was being arrested, tried to adjust his pants and was immediately being shot because the officer thought he was going for a gun. This is absolutely unimaginable in Switzerland; I would have to look it up for the facts but I think to remember a case where someone was shot holding (and threatening with) a fake-gun, and the officer who did so went to jail if I remember correctly.
- welterde 6y ago
  Isn't it quite difficult to get a carry permit for a gun in Switzerland though? Making it not that likely that a random citizen the police officer encounters will actually have a loaded gun.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    According to the German, and French, police, illegal arms are the problem. Not the legal ones. And for the illegal ones, permits aren't important.
  - snovv_crash 6y ago
    There is mandatory military service for males, so you actually see a lot of guns being open-carried by people heading home for the weekend on public transport etc.
    - welterde 6y ago
      They are not allowed to be loaded however if I am not misinformed.
      - snovv_crash 6y ago
        Can you tell if there's a round in the chamber from the outside?
maxerickson 6y ago
Their aggressive approach is difficult to justify with statistics. Despite the much higher relative levels, the amount of gun violence in the US still isn't all that high in an absolute sense, and police are not particularly the target of it.
bluedino 6y ago
There have been almost no guns used against police during these protests.
- humanrebar 6y ago
  But to rephrase, there was a LEO murdered in a drive-by shooting.
  - bobbean 6y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests 200 cities have had protests. Out of the probably hundreds of thousands of people protesting, guns have been responsible for one death of an officer (as far as I know)
pjc50 6y ago
White protestors were allowed to occupy a state building with guns without a single bit of teargas.
- frabbit 6y ago
  Not to mention the Malheur Refuge standoff where heavily armed protestors were handled with kid gloves. Maybe it's to do with having guns?
  - creato 6y ago
    A few of those protestors were chased through a road block and shot at, and one was killed. It is ironic that you are calling the police killing someone handling with "kid gloves" in a thread about deescalation between protestors and police. (Don't get me wrong, what those protestors did was senseless and the epitome of entitlement.)
    - TulliusCicero 6y ago
      > A few of those protestors were chased through a road block and shot at, and one was killed. This is a highly misleading way of describing the situation. The police set up a traffic stop to arrest them. They fled the stop. Finicum told the police he wasn't going to surrender and that they'd have to shoot him. He reached for his gun in his pocket, and then he was shot. If black men were only being killed by police after fleeing arrest, refusing to surrender, challenging the police to shoot them, and then reaching for a gun...then we wouldn't have much of a police violence problem.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Given that one of the subjects of the protests is whether police can murder on mere suspicion of a weapon, I suspect not. The chances of a comparable hypothetical BLM armed occupation being allowed to live are small. If they surrendered they would likely be shot in the back of the head while handcuffed.
    - 6y ago
moate 6y ago
Of course you’re right. It’s why people-police statements are constantly pointing out how these guys “put their life in the line every day” in reference to the dangerous criminals out there (while ignoring that most crimes are non-violent offenses, or at least offense that don’t involve a gun). The 2A people want the government to fear its citizen’s (in their mind this somehow prevents tyranny) and then complain when the state responds to violence with fear and violence. It’s almost as if the American gun lobby wants both sides to need lots of guns and bullets for some reason...

Shacklz 6y ago

> will involve a firearm are much higher than they are in less-well-armed societies. Does anybody know if I'm right about that? Switzerland (disclaimer; I'm Swiss) has also lots of weapons around, but if the police are ever shooting someone it's usually big news with investigations on whether it was really necessary. From my laymen point of view, police training and holding them accountable to their actions is probably even a bigger factor than gun availability (although this is certainly a factor too). If I'm not mistaken, Swiss police training strongly encourages to back off if someone draws a weapon, trying to keep it cool, talk softly/slowly etc. It seems that in the US, the first hint of a weapon will result in drawn weapons by police and a 'drop your weapon'-shouting-contest; that's at least what seems to often happen in footage that ends up in the news where something goes wrong and someone ends up being dead. Edit: One of the more memorable examples I saw was a video via NYT, where some guy was being arrested, tried to adjust his pants and was immediately being shot because the officer thought he was going for a gun. This is absolutely unimaginable in Switzerland; I would have to look it up for the facts but I think to remember a case where someone was shot holding (and threatening with) a fake-gun, and the officer who did so went to jail if I remember correctly.

welterde 6y ago
Isn't it quite difficult to get a carry permit for a gun in Switzerland though? Making it not that likely that a random citizen the police officer encounters will actually have a loaded gun.
- hef19898 6y ago
  According to the German, and French, police, illegal arms are the problem. Not the legal ones. And for the illegal ones, permits aren't important.
- snovv_crash 6y ago
  There is mandatory military service for males, so you actually see a lot of guns being open-carried by people heading home for the weekend on public transport etc.
  - welterde 6y ago
    They are not allowed to be loaded however if I am not misinformed.
    - snovv_crash 6y ago
      Can you tell if there's a round in the chamber from the outside?

maxerickson 6y ago

Their aggressive approach is difficult to justify with statistics. Despite the much higher relative levels, the amount of gun violence in the US still isn't all that high in an absolute sense, and police are not particularly the target of it.

bluedino 6y ago

There have been almost no guns used against police during these protests.

humanrebar 6y ago
But to rephrase, there was a LEO murdered in a drive-by shooting.
- bobbean 6y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests 200 cities have had protests. Out of the probably hundreds of thousands of people protesting, guns have been responsible for one death of an officer (as far as I know)

pjc50 6y ago

White protestors were allowed to occupy a state building with guns without a single bit of teargas.

frabbit 6y ago
Not to mention the Malheur Refuge standoff where heavily armed protestors were handled with kid gloves. Maybe it's to do with having guns?
- creato 6y ago
  A few of those protestors were chased through a road block and shot at, and one was killed. It is ironic that you are calling the police killing someone handling with "kid gloves" in a thread about deescalation between protestors and police. (Don't get me wrong, what those protestors did was senseless and the epitome of entitlement.)
  - TulliusCicero 6y ago
    > A few of those protestors were chased through a road block and shot at, and one was killed. This is a highly misleading way of describing the situation. The police set up a traffic stop to arrest them. They fled the stop. Finicum told the police he wasn't going to surrender and that they'd have to shoot him. He reached for his gun in his pocket, and then he was shot. If black men were only being killed by police after fleeing arrest, refusing to surrender, challenging the police to shoot them, and then reaching for a gun...then we wouldn't have much of a police violence problem.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Given that one of the subjects of the protests is whether police can murder on mere suspicion of a weapon, I suspect not. The chances of a comparable hypothetical BLM armed occupation being allowed to live are small. If they surrendered they would likely be shot in the back of the head while handcuffed.
  - 6y ago

moate 6y ago

Of course you’re right. It’s why people-police statements are constantly pointing out how these guys “put their life in the line every day” in reference to the dangerous criminals out there (while ignoring that most crimes are non-violent offenses, or at least offense that don’t involve a gun). The 2A people want the government to fear its citizen’s (in their mind this somehow prevents tyranny) and then complain when the state responds to violence with fear and violence. It’s almost as if the American gun lobby wants both sides to need lots of guns and bullets for some reason...