5 ms·

should the car have slowed down by itself? yes. was the driver not paying attention and did not have their hands on the wheel? obviously. it is driver assistanc

should the car have slowed down by itself? yes. was the driver not paying attention and did not have their hands on the wheel? obviously. it is driver assistance, you agree to the terms and conditions, you still have to DRIVE the car.

DanCarvajal 6y ago
But it's Autopilot, the car should auto pilot itself.
- dlivingston 6y ago
  That's a misnomer. Just as autopilot in an airplane requires active attention by a pilot, so too does autopilot in a Tesla require active driver attention.
  - CamperBob2 6y ago
    Ask 99 out of 100 people, and they'll say an autopilot "makes the plane fly itself." I'm 100% on board with Tesla and most of Musk's other efforts, but calling this system "Autopilot" was negligent. Are you (speaking to the audience at large, not to the OP) an engineer at Tesla? Did you speak up when they decided to call this thing "Autopilot"? Why or why not?
    - toomuchtodo 6y ago
      > and they'll say an autopilot "makes the plane fly itself." I don't believe in tailoring your marketing for your most ignorant customers. If you ask a Tesla advisor during a test drive, they will very clearly state the car does not drive itself (ask; I've tried more than once to see if they'd say something other than company stance). It is extremely clear in the vehicle's manual and other documentation put front and center for the driver that Autopilot is meant to be an assist, and the driver is responsible at all times. Don't turn on the feature if you're going to ignore the warning messages and legalese. Example in-vehicle copy: https://i1.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/02/autopilto-update-2.jpg https://i1.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/201... https://www.garyshood.com/tesla-autopilot-features/forward.jpg https://www.garyshood.com/tesla-autopilot-features/forward.j... ("Similar to the autopilot function in airplanes, you need to maintain control and responsibility of your vehicle while enjoying the convenience of Autopilot in Model S")
      - rsynnott 6y ago
        Expecting users to proactively ask for clarification of confusing marketing is a HORRIBLE approach.
        toomuchtodo 6y ago
        With roughly a million cars sold and only a handful of owners dead (6 [1]) from their own mistakes (not paying attention), sounds pretty successful to me. Lots of folks would kill for a 0.000006% fatality failure rate, considering the human failure rate: > Distracted driving is dangerous, claiming 2,841 lives in 2018 alone. Among those killed: 1,730 drivers, 605 passengers, 400 pedestrians and 77 bicyclists. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-driving_car_fatalities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-driving_car_fatal... [2] https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/distracted-driving https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/distracted-driving Disclaimer: There is some nuance to this. Early Teslas had no Autopilot, some have Autopilot 1 powered by MobileEye, some have Autopilot 2-3 powered by Tesla. I still believe my point regarding statistics stands. Some people have died, but the amount is noise when considering changing the marketing. Pay attention like you’re supposed to and you don’t die.
        YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
        >> Pay attention like you’re supposed to and you don’t die. Instant Ubik has all the fresh flavor of just-brewed drip coffee. Your husband will say, Christ, Sally, I used to think your coffee was only so-so, But now, wow! Safe when taken as directed. Wild new Ubik salad dressing, not Italian, not French, but an entirely new and different taste treat that’s waking up the world. Wake up to Ubik and be wild! Safe when taken as directed. We wanted to give you a shave like no other you ever had. We said, It’s about time a man’s face got a little loving. We said, With Ubik’s self-winding Swiss chromium never-ending blade, the days of scrape-scrape are over. So try Ubik. And be loved. Warning: use only as directed. And with caution. Perk up pouting household surfaces with new miracle Ubik, the easy-to-apply, extra-shiny, non-stick plastic coating. Entirely harmless if used as directed. Saves endless scrubbing, glides you right out of the kitchen! My hair is so dry, so unmanageable. What’s a girl to do? Simply rub in creamy Ubik hair conditioner. In just five days you’ll discover new body in your hair, new glossiness. And Ubik hairspray, used as directed, is absolutely safe. Has perspiration odor taken you out of the swim? Ten-day Ubik deodorant spray or Ubik roll-on ends worry of offending, brings you back where the happening is. Safe when used as directed in a conscientious program of body hygiene. Pop tasty Ubik into your toaster, made only from fresh fruit and healthful all-vegetable shortening. Ubik makes breakfast a feast, puts zing into your thing! Safe when handled as directed. Could it be that I have bad breath, Tom? Well, Ed, if you’re worried about that, try today’s new Ubik, with powerful germicidal foaming action, guaranteed safe when taken as directed. All quotes from P. K. Dick's Ubik. Sorry to spam the thread but there's really no excuse to use that excuse.
  - GeekyBear 6y ago
    An airliner on autopilot will avoid colliding with other airplanes in it's path all by itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy...
    - snovv_crash 6y ago
      Only if they're running a transponder with their GPS location, heading and velocity.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - dralley 6y ago
      TCAS is a warning system, it doesn't take control of the aircraft, just shout instructions to the pilot.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      It’s not automatic. TCAS is a warning system (available given the sensors installed) that provides a resolution advisory. It’s up the pilot to take action. A very few number of planes do have the capability to integrate this with autopilot but it’s almost always disabled because it can cause cascading collision issues.
  - michaelmrose 6y ago
    People are bad at driving cars. People are impossibly bad in a fashion that can never on average be improved at monitoring a car they aren't driving and reacting fast enough. 60 mph = 88 fps. Reacting 3 seconds late is reacting 256 feet too late especially give the other 240 feet you are going to need to actually stop. Blaming people for not doing something we knew people couldn't do seems pointless.
  - jfk13 6y ago
    "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself." - Tesla
    - natch 6y ago
      That quote is from a demo video showing what capabilities will be rolled out in the future when a) the system is ready for the public, and b) regulatory approvals are granted.
    - ChrisClark 6y ago
      That is a comment about unreleased software planned for the future. All radar based distance cruise control does this same thing. They ignore strange stationary reflections.
toomuchtodo 6y ago
Lots of cars still have a hard time with automatic emergency braking. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu... (Car and Driver: We Crash Four Cars Repeatedly to Test the Latest Automatic Braking Safety Systems) > To understand the strengths and weaknesses of these systems and how they differ, we piloted a Cadillac CT6, a Subaru Impreza, a Tesla Model S, and a Toyota Camry through four tests at FT Techno of America's Fowlerville, Michigan, proving ground. The balloon car is built like a bounce house but with the radar reflectivity of a real car, along with a five-figure price and a Volkswagen wrapper. For the tests with a moving target, a heavy-duty pickup tows the balloon car on 42-foot rails, which allow it to slide forward after impact. > The car companies don't hide the fact that today's AEB systems have blind spots. It's all there in the owner's manuals, typically covered by both an all-encompassing legal disclaimer and explicit examples of why the systems might fail to intervene. For instance, the Camry's AEB system may not work when you're driving on a hill. It might not spot vehicles with high ground clearance or those with low rear ends. It may not work if a wiper blade blocks the camera. Toyota says the system could also fail if the vehicle is wobbling, whatever that means. It may not function when the sun shines directly on the vehicle ahead or into the camera mounted near the rearview mirror. > There's truth in these legal warnings. AEB isn't intended to address low-visibility conditions or a car that suddenly swerves into your path. These systems do their best work preventing the kind of crashes that are easily avoided by an attentive driver. > The edge cases cover the gamut from common to complex. Volvo's owner's manuals outline a target-switching problem for adaptive cruise control (ACC), the convenience feature that relies on the same sensors as AEB. In these scenarios, a vehicle just ahead of the Volvo takes an exit or makes a lane change to reveal a stationary vehicle in the Volvo's path. If traveling above 20 mph, the Volvo will not decelerate, according to its maker. We replicated that scenario for AEB testing, with a lead vehicle making a late lane change as it closed in on the parked balloon car. No car in our test could avoid a collision beyond 30 mph, and as we neared that upper limit, the Tesla and the Subaru provided no warning or braking. Emphasis in last paragraph mine. Disclaimer: Model S, X, Y owner, TSLA investor.
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  > Toyota says the system could also fail if the vehicle is wobbling, whatever that means. Strange phrasing but they're most likely referring to cross-winds, such that the camera (or the computer behind it, rather) cannot determine whether a movement was a vehicle impinging on the path of travel, versus a momentary shift of angle of attack of the camera vehicle.
netsharc 6y ago
It's a case of trusting the marketing brochure and ignoring the EULA...
- slg 6y ago
  The car warns you about this every time you turn on Autopilot. Tesla still has room to improve on their marketing, but let's not pretend the only warnings about Autopilot are buried deep in some EULA.
  - smogcutter 6y ago
    “Oh, that’s just something the lawyers make them put in. Elon says it works great.”

DanCarvajal 6y ago

But it's Autopilot, the car should auto pilot itself.

dlivingston 6y ago
That's a misnomer. Just as autopilot in an airplane requires active attention by a pilot, so too does autopilot in a Tesla require active driver attention.
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  Ask 99 out of 100 people, and they'll say an autopilot "makes the plane fly itself." I'm 100% on board with Tesla and most of Musk's other efforts, but calling this system "Autopilot" was negligent. Are you (speaking to the audience at large, not to the OP) an engineer at Tesla? Did you speak up when they decided to call this thing "Autopilot"? Why or why not?
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    > and they'll say an autopilot "makes the plane fly itself." I don't believe in tailoring your marketing for your most ignorant customers. If you ask a Tesla advisor during a test drive, they will very clearly state the car does not drive itself (ask; I've tried more than once to see if they'd say something other than company stance). It is extremely clear in the vehicle's manual and other documentation put front and center for the driver that Autopilot is meant to be an assist, and the driver is responsible at all times. Don't turn on the feature if you're going to ignore the warning messages and legalese. Example in-vehicle copy: https://i1.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/02/autopilto-update-2.jpg https://i1.wp.com/electrek.co/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/201... https://www.garyshood.com/tesla-autopilot-features/forward.jpg https://www.garyshood.com/tesla-autopilot-features/forward.j... ("Similar to the autopilot function in airplanes, you need to maintain control and responsibility of your vehicle while enjoying the convenience of Autopilot in Model S")
    - rsynnott 6y ago
      Expecting users to proactively ask for clarification of confusing marketing is a HORRIBLE approach.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        With roughly a million cars sold and only a handful of owners dead (6 [1]) from their own mistakes (not paying attention), sounds pretty successful to me. Lots of folks would kill for a 0.000006% fatality failure rate, considering the human failure rate: > Distracted driving is dangerous, claiming 2,841 lives in 2018 alone. Among those killed: 1,730 drivers, 605 passengers, 400 pedestrians and 77 bicyclists. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-driving_car_fatalities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_self-driving_car_fatal... [2] https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/distracted-driving https://www.nhtsa.gov/risky-driving/distracted-driving Disclaimer: There is some nuance to this. Early Teslas had no Autopilot, some have Autopilot 1 powered by MobileEye, some have Autopilot 2-3 powered by Tesla. I still believe my point regarding statistics stands. Some people have died, but the amount is noise when considering changing the marketing. Pay attention like you’re supposed to and you don’t die.
        YeGoblynQueenne 6y ago
        >> Pay attention like you’re supposed to and you don’t die. Instant Ubik has all the fresh flavor of just-brewed drip coffee. Your husband will say, Christ, Sally, I used to think your coffee was only so-so, But now, wow! Safe when taken as directed. Wild new Ubik salad dressing, not Italian, not French, but an entirely new and different taste treat that’s waking up the world. Wake up to Ubik and be wild! Safe when taken as directed. We wanted to give you a shave like no other you ever had. We said, It’s about time a man’s face got a little loving. We said, With Ubik’s self-winding Swiss chromium never-ending blade, the days of scrape-scrape are over. So try Ubik. And be loved. Warning: use only as directed. And with caution. Perk up pouting household surfaces with new miracle Ubik, the easy-to-apply, extra-shiny, non-stick plastic coating. Entirely harmless if used as directed. Saves endless scrubbing, glides you right out of the kitchen! My hair is so dry, so unmanageable. What’s a girl to do? Simply rub in creamy Ubik hair conditioner. In just five days you’ll discover new body in your hair, new glossiness. And Ubik hairspray, used as directed, is absolutely safe. Has perspiration odor taken you out of the swim? Ten-day Ubik deodorant spray or Ubik roll-on ends worry of offending, brings you back where the happening is. Safe when used as directed in a conscientious program of body hygiene. Pop tasty Ubik into your toaster, made only from fresh fruit and healthful all-vegetable shortening. Ubik makes breakfast a feast, puts zing into your thing! Safe when handled as directed. Could it be that I have bad breath, Tom? Well, Ed, if you’re worried about that, try today’s new Ubik, with powerful germicidal foaming action, guaranteed safe when taken as directed. All quotes from P. K. Dick's Ubik. Sorry to spam the thread but there's really no excuse to use that excuse.
- GeekyBear 6y ago
  An airliner on autopilot will avoid colliding with other airplanes in it's path all by itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy...
  - snovv_crash 6y ago
    Only if they're running a transponder with their GPS location, heading and velocity.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dralley 6y ago
    TCAS is a warning system, it doesn't take control of the aircraft, just shout instructions to the pilot.
  - manigandham 6y ago
    It’s not automatic. TCAS is a warning system (available given the sensors installed) that provides a resolution advisory. It’s up the pilot to take action. A very few number of planes do have the capability to integrate this with autopilot but it’s almost always disabled because it can cause cascading collision issues.
- michaelmrose 6y ago
  People are bad at driving cars. People are impossibly bad in a fashion that can never on average be improved at monitoring a car they aren't driving and reacting fast enough. 60 mph = 88 fps. Reacting 3 seconds late is reacting 256 feet too late especially give the other 240 feet you are going to need to actually stop. Blaming people for not doing something we knew people couldn't do seems pointless.
- jfk13 6y ago
  "The person in the driver's seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not doing anything. The car is driving itself." - Tesla
  - natch 6y ago
    That quote is from a demo video showing what capabilities will be rolled out in the future when a) the system is ready for the public, and b) regulatory approvals are granted.
  - ChrisClark 6y ago
    That is a comment about unreleased software planned for the future. All radar based distance cruise control does this same thing. They ignore strange stationary reflections.

toomuchtodo 6y ago

Lots of cars still have a hard time with automatic emergency braking. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-features-automatic-braking-system-tested-explained/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a24511826/safety-featu... (Car and Driver: We Crash Four Cars Repeatedly to Test the Latest Automatic Braking Safety Systems) > To understand the strengths and weaknesses of these systems and how they differ, we piloted a Cadillac CT6, a Subaru Impreza, a Tesla Model S, and a Toyota Camry through four tests at FT Techno of America's Fowlerville, Michigan, proving ground. The balloon car is built like a bounce house but with the radar reflectivity of a real car, along with a five-figure price and a Volkswagen wrapper. For the tests with a moving target, a heavy-duty pickup tows the balloon car on 42-foot rails, which allow it to slide forward after impact. > The car companies don't hide the fact that today's AEB systems have blind spots. It's all there in the owner's manuals, typically covered by both an all-encompassing legal disclaimer and explicit examples of why the systems might fail to intervene. For instance, the Camry's AEB system may not work when you're driving on a hill. It might not spot vehicles with high ground clearance or those with low rear ends. It may not work if a wiper blade blocks the camera. Toyota says the system could also fail if the vehicle is wobbling, whatever that means. It may not function when the sun shines directly on the vehicle ahead or into the camera mounted near the rearview mirror. > There's truth in these legal warnings. AEB isn't intended to address low-visibility conditions or a car that suddenly swerves into your path. These systems do their best work preventing the kind of crashes that are easily avoided by an attentive driver. > The edge cases cover the gamut from common to complex. Volvo's owner's manuals outline a target-switching problem for adaptive cruise control (ACC), the convenience feature that relies on the same sensors as AEB. In these scenarios, a vehicle just ahead of the Volvo takes an exit or makes a lane change to reveal a stationary vehicle in the Volvo's path. If traveling above 20 mph, the Volvo will not decelerate, according to its maker. We replicated that scenario for AEB testing, with a lead vehicle making a late lane change as it closed in on the parked balloon car. No car in our test could avoid a collision beyond 30 mph, and as we neared that upper limit, the Tesla and the Subaru provided no warning or braking. Emphasis in last paragraph mine. Disclaimer: Model S, X, Y owner, TSLA investor.

FireBeyond 6y ago
> Toyota says the system could also fail if the vehicle is wobbling, whatever that means. Strange phrasing but they're most likely referring to cross-winds, such that the camera (or the computer behind it, rather) cannot determine whether a movement was a vehicle impinging on the path of travel, versus a momentary shift of angle of attack of the camera vehicle.

netsharc 6y ago

It's a case of trusting the marketing brochure and ignoring the EULA...

slg 6y ago
The car warns you about this every time you turn on Autopilot. Tesla still has room to improve on their marketing, but let's not pretend the only warnings about Autopilot are buried deep in some EULA.
- smogcutter 6y ago
  “Oh, that’s just something the lawyers make them put in. Elon says it works great.”