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Doesn't this take us back to the discussion around the word Autopilot? Tesla sells it as driver-assist, no more autonomous than an autopilot system in a Boeing

by sgt 6y ago

Doesn't this take us back to the discussion around the word Autopilot? Tesla sells it as driver-assist, no more autonomous than an autopilot system in a Boeing 737. Good for following the obvious path, and otherwise needs input from the actual pilot.

c22 6y ago
It seems like the obvious path would be around solid obstacles. I've never driven a Boeing 737, but will the autopilot really fly you directly into an obstacle with no warning at all? My understanding was that these vehicles are equipped with radar and collision avoidance systems.
- floatingatoll 6y ago
  Generally, non-military aircraft avoid collisions using radio broadcasts from various beacons (their own and those of other planes). Actual radar systems for detecting non-broadcasting obstacles are, per Wikipedia, generally only found on military aircraft. So if you define "an obstacle" as something that is not a plane broadcasting a beacon, then, yes, a Boeing 737 would probably run directly into it if it were somehow in the path of the autopilot.
- s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
  Yes it will, autopilot just keeps the heading and the altitude. There may be other sensors onboard that help with detections (it is a lot more expensive after-all) but the autopilot control system does no such thing. Even with all the sensors onboard, the 747 would most likely run into something without assistance, in fact I've seen a few cases of this on Air Disasters.
- SiempreViernes 6y ago
  Yeah, probably. The use case is keeping the plane stable in a big empty space. I don't think civilian air planes have any collision avoidance radar, because as late as 2006 we get mid air collisions like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transportes_A%C3%A9reos_Flight_1907 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transportes_A%C3%A9reos_Fl...
  - netsharc 6y ago
    The planes don't use radar but rely on transponder data and have TCAS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy...) that would coordinate with each other, and yell at one plane's pilot to go up and the other's to go down. In that accident the smaller plane had its transponder switched off. A passenger on the smaller plane (which had zero casualties) wrote about it from his point of view: https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/business/03road.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/business/03road.html
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    Some Airbus planes have them, but I think it’s an optional extra.
  - mark-r 6y ago
    I once saw a near miss of 2 civilian planes. One was taking off from an airport next to Lake Superior, and the other was a float plane taking off from the adjacent bay. I only noticed because I heard the engines rev up as they took evasive maneuvers.
- Someone 6y ago
  The autopilot will, but many airplanes do have separate systems for collision avoidance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_collision_avoidance_s...)
- serf 6y ago
  Aviation auto-pilot will most definitely fly you into things. Systems exist which will override auto-pilot in the event of such happenings, like Auto-GCAS (ground collision avoidance systems) and equivalents, but these aren't really designed for sudden obstructions -- they are mostly designed to help regain level flight if a pilot becomes unresponsive during maneuvers and is pointed in A Bad Way -- but auto-pilot is not going to be engaged during such flight, anyway. But systems like this do have authority to disengage whatever other systems that may interfere with their operation, like auto-pilot. There are many onboard systems to allow awareness of such conditions that will result in collision, but not much in control of actual flight characteristics on any but the most advanced or experimental planes.
Someone 6y ago
They have backpedalled a bit, but https://www.tesla.com/model3 https://www.tesla.com/model3: “Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically within its lane“ to me, seems to apply to this event. To me, it also looks as if it almost hit a person, too (the driver of the van?)
- AlexandrB 6y ago
  > To me, it also looks as if it almost hit a person, too (the driver of the van?) You’re right, I hadn’t noticed that! That’s even worse. Seeing a person on the side of the road is not that uncommon and is a near-certain fatality if a collision occurs.
detaro 6y ago
Airliners have the large benefit that solid obstacles don't tend to suddenly appear in their flight paths (and the most likely candidate, other planes, is being kept away by ATC and failing that warned about by transponder systems), so the cruise-altitude "follows the obvious path" is a lot more useful. That doesn't protect against operator errors of various kinds (set course into a mountain, didn't realize the autopilot was disengaged, ...), but is a large difference from streets. Even in planes pilots taking over when automation encounters a situation it can't handle is a risk due to potential confusion about the current situation, and on streets the reaction times necessarily to react to an autopilot failure are typically way shorter.
tenpies 6y ago
If only we had a regulatory agency that monitored this sort of stuff and then punished companies that used exploitative language to dangerously market their products as something they are not.

by sgt 6y ago

c22 6y ago

It seems like the obvious path would be around solid obstacles. I've never driven a Boeing 737, but will the autopilot really fly you directly into an obstacle with no warning at all? My understanding was that these vehicles are equipped with radar and collision avoidance systems.

floatingatoll 6y ago
Generally, non-military aircraft avoid collisions using radio broadcasts from various beacons (their own and those of other planes). Actual radar systems for detecting non-broadcasting obstacles are, per Wikipedia, generally only found on military aircraft. So if you define "an obstacle" as something that is not a plane broadcasting a beacon, then, yes, a Boeing 737 would probably run directly into it if it were somehow in the path of the autopilot.
s_y_n_t_a_x 6y ago
Yes it will, autopilot just keeps the heading and the altitude. There may be other sensors onboard that help with detections (it is a lot more expensive after-all) but the autopilot control system does no such thing. Even with all the sensors onboard, the 747 would most likely run into something without assistance, in fact I've seen a few cases of this on Air Disasters.
SiempreViernes 6y ago
Yeah, probably. The use case is keeping the plane stable in a big empty space. I don't think civilian air planes have any collision avoidance radar, because as late as 2006 we get mid air collisions like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transportes_A%C3%A9reos_Flight_1907 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transportes_A%C3%A9reos_Fl...
- netsharc 6y ago
  The planes don't use radar but rely on transponder data and have TCAS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_collision_avoidance_sy...) that would coordinate with each other, and yell at one plane's pilot to go up and the other's to go down. In that accident the smaller plane had its transponder switched off. A passenger on the smaller plane (which had zero casualties) wrote about it from his point of view: https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/business/03road.html https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/business/03road.html
- rsynnott 6y ago
  Some Airbus planes have them, but I think it’s an optional extra.
- mark-r 6y ago
  I once saw a near miss of 2 civilian planes. One was taking off from an airport next to Lake Superior, and the other was a float plane taking off from the adjacent bay. I only noticed because I heard the engines rev up as they took evasive maneuvers.
Someone 6y ago
The autopilot will, but many airplanes do have separate systems for collision avoidance (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_collision_avoidance_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_collision_avoidance_s...)
serf 6y ago
Aviation auto-pilot will most definitely fly you into things. Systems exist which will override auto-pilot in the event of such happenings, like Auto-GCAS (ground collision avoidance systems) and equivalents, but these aren't really designed for sudden obstructions -- they are mostly designed to help regain level flight if a pilot becomes unresponsive during maneuvers and is pointed in A Bad Way -- but auto-pilot is not going to be engaged during such flight, anyway. But systems like this do have authority to disengage whatever other systems that may interfere with their operation, like auto-pilot. There are many onboard systems to allow awareness of such conditions that will result in collision, but not much in control of actual flight characteristics on any but the most advanced or experimental planes.

Someone 6y ago

They have backpedalled a bit, but https://www.tesla.com/model3 https://www.tesla.com/model3: “Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically within its lane“ to me, seems to apply to this event. To me, it also looks as if it almost hit a person, too (the driver of the van?)

AlexandrB 6y ago
> To me, it also looks as if it almost hit a person, too (the driver of the van?) You’re right, I hadn’t noticed that! That’s even worse. Seeing a person on the side of the road is not that uncommon and is a near-certain fatality if a collision occurs.

detaro 6y ago

Airliners have the large benefit that solid obstacles don't tend to suddenly appear in their flight paths (and the most likely candidate, other planes, is being kept away by ATC and failing that warned about by transponder systems), so the cruise-altitude "follows the obvious path" is a lot more useful. That doesn't protect against operator errors of various kinds (set course into a mountain, didn't realize the autopilot was disengaged, ...), but is a large difference from streets. Even in planes pilots taking over when automation encounters a situation it can't handle is a risk due to potential confusion about the current situation, and on streets the reaction times necessarily to react to an autopilot failure are typically way shorter.

tenpies 6y ago

If only we had a regulatory agency that monitored this sort of stuff and then punished companies that used exploitative language to dangerously market their products as something they are not.