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I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will

I agree with almost everything Mr. Obama wrote. But... I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. Because it accomplishes the exact opposite of they hope it will accomplish: 1. Those who side with heavy-handed police tactics feel vindicated for their prejudices. 2. The communities of those who feel unheard and left out are torn down even further. 3. Every civilian-police officer interaction post-riot will be even more contentious, thus making violence more likely. Don’t get me wrong I believe there are corrupt officials and police officers. Obama is right about how to fix that on the local level. About the actual problem being protested: One of the themes of the protests is to say the names[1] of those have been killed at the hands of the police. Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country. Try naming the victims of rape or suicide or even murder. Name the police officers killed in the line of duty in the last ten years. You can’t there’s way too many. George Floyd should not have died. And the police officer(s) who contributed to his death should be held 100% accountable for their actions. But there will always be unnecessary deaths in law enforcement situations. Rioting and burning down your own city will not make that fact go away. So, I feel a loss of hope when I see these riots. To me, it means we are so far from working together to fix the problems that can be fixed. It creates a bigger divide in our society. [1]https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watching-black-people-die https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865261916/a-decade-of-watchin...

kryogen1c 6y ago
> Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country. true, but the counterpoint is the problem is not the volume of errors, its how the errors are handled. people know those names because the issues were never closed. Public servants like police officers should be open kimono; if someone dies, it should be a big deal. where's the brutally honest post-mortem? we expect this out of meaningless things like $SaaS, why in gods name not our police forces?
- mhh__ 6y ago
  The US imprisons roughly 5 times as many black people as a proportion of it's population than apartheid South Africa, it's volume too.
- im3w1l-alt 6y ago
  When people talked about blameless post mortems I never fully believed them. I did however never fear ending up on death row.
frockington1 6y ago
And it will be even harder for the communities hurt by this to come back. When you burn down stores in the neighborhood, its very likely the services and taxes they provide are not coming back
- 0x8BADF00D 6y ago
  It’s a vicious cycle. The rioters and looters pillage their own communities. This causes productive locals to flee, as it is now a safety issue and most of them were impacted financially by COVID-19 so they do not have the means to rebuild. Eventually all that’s left is rubble.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
saagarjha 6y ago
> But there will always be unnecessary deaths in law enforcement situations. The goal is to bring that number as close to zero as possible.
- luckylion 6y ago
  That's easy: just remove all laws or all law enforcement.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Thankfully we are not robots and can take multiple things into account when optimizing :)
lazyjones 6y ago
> I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. I am confident that this reality check for people who are somewhat blindly supporting their ideologies will benefit everyone. Beginning with the wealthier people who supported these protests and are now seeing their gated communities burn and their "progressive" newspapers destroyed.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  Are the gated communities burning or the high-density poor city blocks?
  - lazyjones 6y ago
    Looks like both, but poor areas first: https://twitter.com/ChrisPalmerNBA/status/1267415173045735425 https://twitter.com/ChrisPalmerNBA/status/126741517304573542... https://thepostmillennial.com/journalist-supported-protesters-until-they-stormed-her-office https://thepostmillennial.com/journalist-supported-protester...
chiefalchemist 6y ago
Obama, the POTUS who ordered plenty of military actions that led to hundreds of innocent civilian deaths. Civilians who did not have white skin. The irony should not be too quickly dismissed. "President Obama, who hoped to sow peace, instead led the nation in war" https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-pol-obama-at-war/ https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-pol-obama-at-war/
smnrchrds 6y ago
> Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country. > Name the police officers killed in the line of duty in the last ten years. You can’t there’s way too many. First of all, the number of people killed by US police is an order of magnitude higher than the number of police officers killed in the line of duty. I have provided sources about this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373468 Of course, not every death caused by police is unjustifiable. But let's keep the whole picture in mind. Second, I don't think any reasonable person is arguing that police officers nonchalantly murdering random black citizens is the systemic issue. What is systemic is police misconduct and brutality, as well as bias towards minorities especially black people. In extreme circumstances, this can result in loss of life; but most of the time, it won't. You may have heard of Heinrich's law. If you have not, please take a look at the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_triangle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_triangle The gist of Heinrich's law is that for each accident causing serious serious injury or death, tens of accidents had occurred previously causing minor injury. For each accident causing minor injury, there had been tens of accidents causing no injury. For each accident causing no injury, there had been tens of unsafe acts. To give an example, a drunk driver killing someone had probably driven drunk hundreds of time before. He had scraped the paint on his car a couple of times, and the rest, he had driven without any accident of any sort. For every death on that list, how many people have suffered life altering injuries and permanent disabilities at the hands of the police, e.g. blindness [1] or paralysis [2]? For every person suffering life altering injuries, how many have suffered serious yet healable injuries, e.g. broken ribs, ruptured spleen, etc.? For every person suffering serious yet healable injuries, how many have suffered minor injuries, e.g. broken nose, broken teeth, bruises, cuts, etc.? For every person suffering minor injuries, how many have been harassed, targeted, unjustifiably arrested or carded? This is the systemic issue people are protesting against. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/minneapolis-protests-press.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/minneapolis-protests-p... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/assault-charges-dropped-alabama-cop-who-partially-paralyzed-indian-grandfather-n573806 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/assault-charges-d...
- frogpelt 6y ago

kryogen1c 6y ago

> Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country. true, but the counterpoint is the problem is not the volume of errors, its how the errors are handled. people know those names because the issues were never closed. Public servants like police officers should be open kimono; if someone dies, it should be a big deal. where's the brutally honest post-mortem? we expect this out of meaningless things like $SaaS, why in gods name not our police forces?

mhh__ 6y ago
The US imprisons roughly 5 times as many black people as a proportion of it's population than apartheid South Africa, it's volume too.
im3w1l-alt 6y ago
When people talked about blameless post mortems I never fully believed them. I did however never fear ending up on death row.

frockington1 6y ago

And it will be even harder for the communities hurt by this to come back. When you burn down stores in the neighborhood, its very likely the services and taxes they provide are not coming back

0x8BADF00D 6y ago
It’s a vicious cycle. The rioters and looters pillage their own communities. This causes productive locals to flee, as it is now a safety issue and most of them were impacted financially by COVID-19 so they do not have the means to rebuild. Eventually all that’s left is rubble.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

saagarjha 6y ago

> But there will always be unnecessary deaths in law enforcement situations. The goal is to bring that number as close to zero as possible.

luckylion 6y ago
That's easy: just remove all laws or all law enforcement.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Thankfully we are not robots and can take multiple things into account when optimizing :)

lazyjones 6y ago

> I feel the complete opposite of “hopeful” when I see these riots, when I see people so angry they will destroy their own cities. I am confident that this reality check for people who are somewhat blindly supporting their ideologies will benefit everyone. Beginning with the wealthier people who supported these protests and are now seeing their gated communities burn and their "progressive" newspapers destroyed.

whatshisface 6y ago
Are the gated communities burning or the high-density poor city blocks?
- lazyjones 6y ago
  Looks like both, but poor areas first: https://twitter.com/ChrisPalmerNBA/status/1267415173045735425 https://twitter.com/ChrisPalmerNBA/status/126741517304573542... https://thepostmillennial.com/journalist-supported-protesters-until-they-stormed-her-office https://thepostmillennial.com/journalist-supported-protester...

chiefalchemist 6y ago

Obama, the POTUS who ordered plenty of military actions that led to hundreds of innocent civilian deaths. Civilians who did not have white skin. The irony should not be too quickly dismissed. "President Obama, who hoped to sow peace, instead led the nation in war" https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-pol-obama-at-war/ https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-na-pol-obama-at-war/

smnrchrds 6y ago

> Just using common sense tells me that if you can name off the victims it means the problem isn’t widespread or systemic across the country. > Name the police officers killed in the line of duty in the last ten years. You can’t there’s way too many. First of all, the number of people killed by US police is an order of magnitude higher than the number of police officers killed in the line of duty. I have provided sources about this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373468 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373468 Of course, not every death caused by police is unjustifiable. But let's keep the whole picture in mind. Second, I don't think any reasonable person is arguing that police officers nonchalantly murdering random black citizens is the systemic issue. What is systemic is police misconduct and brutality, as well as bias towards minorities especially black people. In extreme circumstances, this can result in loss of life; but most of the time, it won't. You may have heard of Heinrich's law. If you have not, please take a look at the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_triangle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_triangle The gist of Heinrich's law is that for each accident causing serious serious injury or death, tens of accidents had occurred previously causing minor injury. For each accident causing minor injury, there had been tens of accidents causing no injury. For each accident causing no injury, there had been tens of unsafe acts. To give an example, a drunk driver killing someone had probably driven drunk hundreds of time before. He had scraped the paint on his car a couple of times, and the rest, he had driven without any accident of any sort. For every death on that list, how many people have suffered life altering injuries and permanent disabilities at the hands of the police, e.g. blindness [1] or paralysis [2]? For every person suffering life altering injuries, how many have suffered serious yet healable injuries, e.g. broken ribs, ruptured spleen, etc.? For every person suffering serious yet healable injuries, how many have suffered minor injuries, e.g. broken nose, broken teeth, bruises, cuts, etc.? For every person suffering minor injuries, how many have been harassed, targeted, unjustifiably arrested or carded? This is the systemic issue people are protesting against. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/minneapolis-protests-press.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/minneapolis-protests-p... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/assault-charges-dropped-alabama-cop-who-partially-paralyzed-indian-grandfather-n573806 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/assault-charges-d...

frogpelt 6y ago