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I'm only familiar with Python, Javascript and Rust. It seems to me that Rust is the only one that has "solved" this problem. I dont think there are any real Py

I'm only familiar with Python, Javascript and Rust. It seems to me that Rust is the only one that has "solved" this problem. I dont think there are any real Python devs who thinks dependency management is solved. However, why would you claim Javascript has a good solution? The inconsistencies between node and web dev is odd at best. Babel compilation is annoying and slow. Are we even standardized on webpack yet? Can anyone say with a straight face that getting a new JS dev caught up on what all these different parts to compile a JS program is a solved problem? I dont fault either Python or the JS ecosystems. As pioneers in dependency management, there was a lot of trial and error. New languages like Rust benefited from it and that's ok.

tarruda 6y ago
One thing node.js got right is the module resolution logic. Node doesn't even need something like venv since module lookup is always local. Also no problem with dependency hell. Each dependency can have its own private dependencies, even different versions of dependencies shared by sibling modules. Tools like yarn/npm can remove duplicates across a project.
- pydry 6y ago
  It's a lot more of a pressing concern when you have an average of 1,200 dependencies per project. (I'm actually not sure if it is the average but my anecdotal experience is that it's an order of magnitude higher than python, and 1200 wouldn't be unusual).
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    That's probably quite accurate for front-end projects which pull in a ton of packages for 1. A compatibility layer wih older browsers. 2. Build tooling. Node projects tend to have a lot smaller dependency graphs.
- nouveaux 6y ago
  Yes we all learned that virtual envs are not the right way to do it. Node definitely got this portion right. I wish Python can abandon virtual envs. This is the most annoying part of setting up a project.
- mariokostelac 6y ago
  How come other tools don't just replicate successful models?
mariokostelac 6y ago
That's very true. Starting fresh definitely helps. I would not say JS solved it, but yarn (and even npm these days) seem to be superior to all python dependency management tools before pipenv. None of them had a proper lockfile, for example.
- nouveaux 6y ago
  Agreed. I think pipenv had a really good start but sputtered. Poetry does look hopeful to solve the dependency resolution.
hobofan 6y ago
> Can anyone say with a straight face that getting a new JS dev caught up on what all these different parts to compile a JS program is a solved problem? You are intermixing dependency management with build tools. Webpack and Babel have very little to do with dependency management.
- nouveaux 6y ago
  I loosely included Babel and Webpack as part of dependency management since Python does not have a similar compile step. I don't think it is unfair since they fall into the same category of wtf when trying to get your dev environment working. With that said, I should have included Yarn and Npm with their own problems. I can't remember how often I solved my dependency problems with rm -rf node_modules.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    Python does have a compile step if your packages contain C extensions and aren't bundled into binary wheels. This shit tends to only work because of a whole lot of effort by package maintainers to make sure it compiles on a handful of supported systems, but if you aren't running such a system you get to debug a bunch of C dependency errors buried under a mile of gcc warnings and other make output.
diarrhea 6y ago
> As pioneers in dependency management Maybe a noob question, but how come they are pioneers? Weren't there languages with package systems before Python and JS?
- diegof79 6y ago
  My first encounter with something like a package manager was CPAN for Perl... maybe they were the pioneers
- nouveaux 6y ago
  Actually no. As diegof79 pointed out, Perl was the first one with a centralized package management system with CPAN. Perl was first released in 1987. Python was first released in 1990. Javascript was first released in 1995. The internet was the launch pad for these open source languages, which allowed the sharing of code written in these languages. Another thing to note is that dependencies were not that complex in the 90s. The idea of dependency management started when there was too many dependencies to manage and the existing tools could not reliably reproduce builds. My guess is that all these package use took off after the dotcom boom in 2000 and everyone started building websites with Ruby, Python and eventually Nodejs.

tarruda 6y ago

One thing node.js got right is the module resolution logic. Node doesn't even need something like venv since module lookup is always local. Also no problem with dependency hell. Each dependency can have its own private dependencies, even different versions of dependencies shared by sibling modules. Tools like yarn/npm can remove duplicates across a project.

pydry 6y ago
It's a lot more of a pressing concern when you have an average of 1,200 dependencies per project. (I'm actually not sure if it is the average but my anecdotal experience is that it's an order of magnitude higher than python, and 1200 wouldn't be unusual).
- nicoburns 6y ago
  That's probably quite accurate for front-end projects which pull in a ton of packages for 1. A compatibility layer wih older browsers. 2. Build tooling. Node projects tend to have a lot smaller dependency graphs.
nouveaux 6y ago
Yes we all learned that virtual envs are not the right way to do it. Node definitely got this portion right. I wish Python can abandon virtual envs. This is the most annoying part of setting up a project.
mariokostelac 6y ago
How come other tools don't just replicate successful models?

mariokostelac 6y ago

That's very true. Starting fresh definitely helps. I would not say JS solved it, but yarn (and even npm these days) seem to be superior to all python dependency management tools before pipenv. None of them had a proper lockfile, for example.

nouveaux 6y ago
Agreed. I think pipenv had a really good start but sputtered. Poetry does look hopeful to solve the dependency resolution.

hobofan 6y ago

> Can anyone say with a straight face that getting a new JS dev caught up on what all these different parts to compile a JS program is a solved problem? You are intermixing dependency management with build tools. Webpack and Babel have very little to do with dependency management.

nouveaux 6y ago
I loosely included Babel and Webpack as part of dependency management since Python does not have a similar compile step. I don't think it is unfair since they fall into the same category of wtf when trying to get your dev environment working. With that said, I should have included Yarn and Npm with their own problems. I can't remember how often I solved my dependency problems with rm -rf node_modules.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  Python does have a compile step if your packages contain C extensions and aren't bundled into binary wheels. This shit tends to only work because of a whole lot of effort by package maintainers to make sure it compiles on a handful of supported systems, but if you aren't running such a system you get to debug a bunch of C dependency errors buried under a mile of gcc warnings and other make output.

diarrhea 6y ago

> As pioneers in dependency management Maybe a noob question, but how come they are pioneers? Weren't there languages with package systems before Python and JS?

diegof79 6y ago
My first encounter with something like a package manager was CPAN for Perl... maybe they were the pioneers
nouveaux 6y ago
Actually no. As diegof79 pointed out, Perl was the first one with a centralized package management system with CPAN. Perl was first released in 1987. Python was first released in 1990. Javascript was first released in 1995. The internet was the launch pad for these open source languages, which allowed the sharing of code written in these languages. Another thing to note is that dependencies were not that complex in the 90s. The idea of dependency management started when there was too many dependencies to manage and the existing tools could not reliably reproduce builds. My guess is that all these package use took off after the dotcom boom in 2000 and everyone started building websites with Ruby, Python and eventually Nodejs.