7 ms·

Cross-posted from another thread that is now buried:[0] The "Andrew" in question who courted Keivan (AppGet's dev) is Andrew Clinick. He wrote a blog post in r

Cross-posted from another thread that is now buried:[0] The "Andrew" in question who courted Keivan (AppGet's dev) is Andrew Clinick. He wrote a blog post in response to this a few days ago: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/winget-install-learning/ https://devblogs.microsoft.com/commandline/winget-install-le... Still seems pretty tone-deaf to me - obviously MS seems to be in the legal clear, but the moral high ground and lots of dev goodwill has been lost. It also damages the ability for devs to informally meet and chat with PMs at larger companies everywhere - adds a lot of mistrust to the eco-system. This is not that MS came up with their own package manager. It's the entire song-and-dance routine that was conducted about potentially hiring Keivan, and then ghosting the engineer whose open-source product you were simultaneously cloning. Of course, people will forget, but many will still remember. This is still a net-negative all-around when it didn't need to be. Edit, this ZDNet article adds no new information and nothing has changed since the other articles have come out, but I guess it's good that more places are covering it to signal boost this properly. [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23375624 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23375624

franciscop 6y ago
FWIW this has been discussed here (please HN do not spam it) where both Andrew and Keivan have started talking, and it seems then they took it to a private convo: https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/issues/353 https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/issues/353 Disclaimer: I opened that issue
- username3 6y ago
  Keivan doesn’t want an apology. Keivan only wants credit.
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    Did Keivan credit Microsoft for every free or open source tool, service or framework of theirs that he used during his career? And credit for what? Unoriginal ideas that have been around forever? They didn't even build WinGet in the same language as AppGet! You can see the rest of my response to the top comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23377936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23377936
    - jstanley 6y ago
      > Did Keivan credit Microsoft for every free or open source tool, service or framework of theirs that he used during his career? Regardless of that, I'm guessing he didn't engage them in dishonest attempts to hire them just to learn more about their ideas and then walk away.
      - wayneftw 6y ago
        > Regardless of that... I was replying to someone who only regarded the point of the credit. > I'm guessing he didn't engage them in dishonest attempts to hire them just to learn more about their ideas and then walk away ...allegedly. The onus of evidence is on you. Until then, we can safely assume cock-up before conspiracy. Many, many big companies don't call you back after an interview and we all know this.
        onemoresoop 6y ago
        This was no regular interview, it’s quite dishonest of you to say that. Second, be honest; do you have any stake in the game yourself? Do you work for microsoft?
        dang 6y ago
        That crosses into personal attack and you can't do that on HN. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        wayneftw 6y ago
        > This was no regular interview, it’s quite dishonest of you to say that. How so? It was an interview for him to bring AppGet in-house to Microsoft. That's normal software business. Honestly, based on what this Keivan said - I think he scared Microsoft away with his demands that they take the project only in a direction that he approves of. And when they went away, they took some of the most banal ideas, ideas that have been done a thousand times in other projects and used them in their own - which they built in a completely different programming language with exception to the very, very common YAML configuration. > Second, be honest; do you have any stake in the game yourself? Do you work for microsoft? Nope. People who disagree are simply wrong and I'm attempting to correct their ill-formed point of view. Meanwhile, you're shitting up the comments with this trashy ad hominem insinuation of shilling. It's against the rules and you should stop doing it - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 6y ago
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deleted 6y ago
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GuiA 6y ago
Oh wow, what is even the point of this blog post? It boils down to: - we released a thing - yes we spent time courting the guy who made a version of the thing that ours looks suspiciously like, turns out he’s really good - well yes our thing has a lot of features taken from the other thing! - we’re excited for the future!! Maybe that guy can even help us out since he loves open source so much hahaha Tone deaf at best, implied fuck you at worst.
Joeri 6y ago
I have a different reading of this. I think this is them doing the best they can within the limits set by microsoft's legal department. They cannot legally admit they looked at his code and copied the structure, because that opens them up to a copyright suit. In the blog post it seems they went as far as they could: admitting to being influenced by the ideas, without having actually copied any of the code. If they really want to fix this, they need to pay AppGet's author some money, and get something in writing so they are legally protected from copyright suits. I assume they're negotiating this right now, and that once this deal is done there will be another blog post that is more genuine. They really messed this up because it would have been cheap to get something in writing before releasing WinGet. Someone at microsoft legal dropped the ball.
- xhkkffbf 6y ago
  I'm mean I know it would be nice to toss him some money. And it sucks when companies ghost people. But really isn't the point of open source that everyone can do what they want with the code? And if you're not distributing the actual code, why do you owe them anything? If I gave credit to everyone who influenced the code I write, the file would be huge. Does the world have enough disk drives to hold all the credit where credit is due?
  - throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
    > why do you owe them anything? decency, morals, thoughtfulness, that kind of thing > If I gave credit to everyone who influenced the code I write... They directly ripped it off. Big companies will try not to pay even when they have money. To not even give the minimum of non-monetary credit is even less reason for me ever to release code under a "what's mine is yours licence".
    - wayneftw 6y ago
      > They directly ripped it off. No, they used some very common and unoriginal ideas that were implemented in AppGet. Can you point out exactly what was "ripped off" here? - https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli - https://github.com/appget/appget https://github.com/appget/appget They're not even written in the same language. And everything done in AppGet has been done before. Yawn > Big companies will try not to pay even when they have money. I will try not to pay, even when I have money. I think this applies to most people. Who wants to pays for something that's already free? I'm not running a fuckin charity over here. > To not even give the minimum of non-monetary credit... They've given it. However, I wonder if during all of this Keivan has credited Microsoft for all of the open source tools, services and frameworks that he's used in his other work???
benatkin 6y ago
> Still seems pretty tone-deaf to me It was well-received on GitHub. 15 thumbs up, 3 thumbs down. This is in a thread where people are showing a lot of support for @kayone. https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/issues/353#issuecomment-636374783 https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/issues/353#issuecomm... Side note: It's amusing that @aclinick doesn't have an avatar on GitHub, given these three facts: 1) @aclinick works for Microsoft 2) GitHub is a Microsoft property 3) LinkedIn is also a Microsoft property and has a very strict avatar policy
forgingahead 6y ago
I want to clarify, my point was not to unleash a mob onto the MS PM, but rather to bring sunlight onto this issue and hopefully allow for a fix and prevention of this occurring again in the future. Health of the system and all that. Nobody should get fired (Keivan himself said so in the Github issue), but now that there is some public attention on this, let the parties involved find an amicable way to resolve it their own satisfaction.

franciscop 6y ago

FWIW this has been discussed here (please HN do not spam it) where both Andrew and Keivan have started talking, and it seems then they took it to a private convo: https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/issues/353 https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/issues/353 Disclaimer: I opened that issue

username3 6y ago
Keivan doesn’t want an apology. Keivan only wants credit.
- wayneftw 6y ago
  Did Keivan credit Microsoft for every free or open source tool, service or framework of theirs that he used during his career? And credit for what? Unoriginal ideas that have been around forever? They didn't even build WinGet in the same language as AppGet! You can see the rest of my response to the top comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23377936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23377936
  - jstanley 6y ago
    > Did Keivan credit Microsoft for every free or open source tool, service or framework of theirs that he used during his career? Regardless of that, I'm guessing he didn't engage them in dishonest attempts to hire them just to learn more about their ideas and then walk away.
    - wayneftw 6y ago
      > Regardless of that... I was replying to someone who only regarded the point of the credit. > I'm guessing he didn't engage them in dishonest attempts to hire them just to learn more about their ideas and then walk away ...allegedly. The onus of evidence is on you. Until then, we can safely assume cock-up before conspiracy. Many, many big companies don't call you back after an interview and we all know this.
      - onemoresoop 6y ago
        This was no regular interview, it’s quite dishonest of you to say that. Second, be honest; do you have any stake in the game yourself? Do you work for microsoft?
        dang 6y ago
        That crosses into personal attack and you can't do that on HN. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        wayneftw 6y ago
        > This was no regular interview, it’s quite dishonest of you to say that. How so? It was an interview for him to bring AppGet in-house to Microsoft. That's normal software business. Honestly, based on what this Keivan said - I think he scared Microsoft away with his demands that they take the project only in a direction that he approves of. And when they went away, they took some of the most banal ideas, ideas that have been done a thousand times in other projects and used them in their own - which they built in a completely different programming language with exception to the very, very common YAML configuration. > Second, be honest; do you have any stake in the game yourself? Do you work for microsoft? Nope. People who disagree are simply wrong and I'm attempting to correct their ill-formed point of view. Meanwhile, you're shitting up the comments with this trashy ad hominem insinuation of shilling. It's against the rules and you should stop doing it - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

GuiA 6y ago

Oh wow, what is even the point of this blog post? It boils down to: - we released a thing - yes we spent time courting the guy who made a version of the thing that ours looks suspiciously like, turns out he’s really good - well yes our thing has a lot of features taken from the other thing! - we’re excited for the future!! Maybe that guy can even help us out since he loves open source so much hahaha Tone deaf at best, implied fuck you at worst.

Joeri 6y ago

I have a different reading of this. I think this is them doing the best they can within the limits set by microsoft's legal department. They cannot legally admit they looked at his code and copied the structure, because that opens them up to a copyright suit. In the blog post it seems they went as far as they could: admitting to being influenced by the ideas, without having actually copied any of the code. If they really want to fix this, they need to pay AppGet's author some money, and get something in writing so they are legally protected from copyright suits. I assume they're negotiating this right now, and that once this deal is done there will be another blog post that is more genuine. They really messed this up because it would have been cheap to get something in writing before releasing WinGet. Someone at microsoft legal dropped the ball.

xhkkffbf 6y ago
I'm mean I know it would be nice to toss him some money. And it sucks when companies ghost people. But really isn't the point of open source that everyone can do what they want with the code? And if you're not distributing the actual code, why do you owe them anything? If I gave credit to everyone who influenced the code I write, the file would be huge. Does the world have enough disk drives to hold all the credit where credit is due?
- throwaway_pdp09 6y ago
  > why do you owe them anything? decency, morals, thoughtfulness, that kind of thing > If I gave credit to everyone who influenced the code I write... They directly ripped it off. Big companies will try not to pay even when they have money. To not even give the minimum of non-monetary credit is even less reason for me ever to release code under a "what's mine is yours licence".
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    > They directly ripped it off. No, they used some very common and unoriginal ideas that were implemented in AppGet. Can you point out exactly what was "ripped off" here? - https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli - https://github.com/appget/appget https://github.com/appget/appget They're not even written in the same language. And everything done in AppGet has been done before. Yawn > Big companies will try not to pay even when they have money. I will try not to pay, even when I have money. I think this applies to most people. Who wants to pays for something that's already free? I'm not running a fuckin charity over here. > To not even give the minimum of non-monetary credit... They've given it. However, I wonder if during all of this Keivan has credited Microsoft for all of the open source tools, services and frameworks that he's used in his other work???

benatkin 6y ago

> Still seems pretty tone-deaf to me It was well-received on GitHub. 15 thumbs up, 3 thumbs down. This is in a thread where people are showing a lot of support for @kayone. https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/issues/353#issuecomment-636374783 https://github.com/microsoft/winget-cli/issues/353#issuecomm... Side note: It's amusing that @aclinick doesn't have an avatar on GitHub, given these three facts: 1) @aclinick works for Microsoft 2) GitHub is a Microsoft property 3) LinkedIn is also a Microsoft property and has a very strict avatar policy

forgingahead 6y ago

I want to clarify, my point was not to unleash a mob onto the MS PM, but rather to bring sunlight onto this issue and hopefully allow for a fix and prevention of this occurring again in the future. Health of the system and all that. Nobody should get fired (Keivan himself said so in the Github issue), but now that there is some public attention on this, let the parties involved find an amicable way to resolve it their own satisfaction.