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> It is forcing your customers to accept a "No user serviceable parts" license in terms of the software that is deemed unethical Good point. > Not being able

> It is forcing your customers to accept a "No user serviceable parts" license in terms of the software that is deemed unethical Good point. > Not being able to inspect the code to see what it is doing may have ramifications for the user -- perhaps not so obvious on a device that has no network, but it is where it starts. Sure. This connects to data and privacy concerns. > If I don't give you a binary, then I never have to give you source code. True of the GPL, but not of the Affero GPL. Also, permissive Free Software licences like Apache impose no such requirements, but are still Free Software licences. Free Software isn't the same thing as copyleft. (Of course, if you distribute binaries but refuse to share the source, then what you are doing is no longer Free Software.) > It is purely a consumer rights issue. This makes for easy contrast with the Open Source movement, which is good, but I think it's a little misleading. As an analogy, the right-to-repair movement doesn't expect hardware companies to hand over their design documents, they're just seeking to end open hostility toward third-party repairs. I fully appreciate Stallman's 4 Freedoms, including Freedom 1, the right to study software, but I'm not sure I'd quite call it a consumer rights matter. Payware proprietary software licenses prevent you from freely copying/distributing the software. Patents and design patents can do a similar thing with hardware. That's not really a consumer rights problem. To put that another way, I can see the sense in treating Freedom 0 (freedom to run the program as you wish) and Freedom 1 (freedom to study how the program works) as consumer rights issues. I'm not convinced though that Freedom 2 (freedom to redistribute copies) and Freedom 3 (freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions) are consumer rights issues.

toyg 6y ago
Rights of resale do not agree with your view.
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  Meaning what? Please give a full reply, not a bullet-point.
  - toyg 6y ago
    Freedom 2 and 3 are limitations of your right of resale applied to software. Actual applications differ by jurisdiction, of course, but my point is that, by limiting a consumer right, they become a consumer-rights issue by definition.
    - jfkebwjsbx 6y ago
      Right of resale does not make sense for a lot of software. Games that are only meant to be played once are a good example and can be compared to a ticket to the cinema. It does not make sense to allow to resell those games.
      - seba_dos1 6y ago
        On the other hand, you can resale your DVDs and Blurays just fine even after you watched the movie.
    - robto 6y ago
      I don't think they are - you can always sell libre software. Whether anyone is willing to buy it is another question, but at no point is your right to resell abridged.
mikekchar 6y ago
Just to be clear the Affero GPL only differs in that I would have to give you source code (edit: previously typed "software") if I supply a binary for you to use over a network. My point was really just that if I have not supplied a binary to you (and hence you are not my customer), then I don't need to do anything for you. This is frequently confused by people. They are clearly consumer rights issues, to me. Whether you think they are important consumer rights issues is quite another matter ;-). Freedom 3, IMHO is definitely more important that Freedom 2. If you've managed to fix an issue, but are prevented from helping other people to fix the issue, I think it's problematic. As a consumer, I definitely value Freedom 2. Personally, I'm not sure I would consider it an ethical issue. However, whether or not Freedom 2 is really an ethical issue, I think it's fairly straightforward to understand how people find Free software, as a whole, an ethical consumer rights issue. I'm not saying that everybody in the world is going to agree with the stance (and clearly many don't), but it's not much of a stretch to at least understand the position. More edits for clarity. I should probably just go to sleep :-)
- MaxBarraclough 6y ago
  I think I see where you're coming from, at some point it becomes a question of semantics. > the Affero GPL only differs in that I would have to give you source code (edit: previously typed "software") if I supply a binary for you to use over a network That doesn't sound right. You don't have to distribute a binary for the Affero GPL to require you to release your source. From the FSF: > The GNU Affero General Public License is a modified version of the ordinary GNU GPL version 3. It has one added requirement: if you run a modified program on a server and let other users communicate with it there, your server must also allow them to download the source code corresponding to the modified version running there. https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.en.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.en.html
  - mikekchar 6y ago
    Yes, the "them" refers to the users. If you have users of a binary server, you must allow those users to download the source code. You do not need to allow anyone who is not a user to do so, though. Edit (programmer needs sleep badly): Clearly it doesn't have to be a binary. It's any executable over a network. But you don't have to give the source cod to everyone, that's really my only point :-)

toyg 6y ago

Rights of resale do not agree with your view.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago
Meaning what? Please give a full reply, not a bullet-point.
- toyg 6y ago
  Freedom 2 and 3 are limitations of your right of resale applied to software. Actual applications differ by jurisdiction, of course, but my point is that, by limiting a consumer right, they become a consumer-rights issue by definition.
  - jfkebwjsbx 6y ago
    Right of resale does not make sense for a lot of software. Games that are only meant to be played once are a good example and can be compared to a ticket to the cinema. It does not make sense to allow to resell those games.
    - seba_dos1 6y ago
      On the other hand, you can resale your DVDs and Blurays just fine even after you watched the movie.
  - robto 6y ago
    I don't think they are - you can always sell libre software. Whether anyone is willing to buy it is another question, but at no point is your right to resell abridged.

mikekchar 6y ago

Just to be clear the Affero GPL only differs in that I would have to give you source code (edit: previously typed "software") if I supply a binary for you to use over a network. My point was really just that if I have not supplied a binary to you (and hence you are not my customer), then I don't need to do anything for you. This is frequently confused by people. They are clearly consumer rights issues, to me. Whether you think they are important consumer rights issues is quite another matter ;-). Freedom 3, IMHO is definitely more important that Freedom 2. If you've managed to fix an issue, but are prevented from helping other people to fix the issue, I think it's problematic. As a consumer, I definitely value Freedom 2. Personally, I'm not sure I would consider it an ethical issue. However, whether or not Freedom 2 is really an ethical issue, I think it's fairly straightforward to understand how people find Free software, as a whole, an ethical consumer rights issue. I'm not saying that everybody in the world is going to agree with the stance (and clearly many don't), but it's not much of a stretch to at least understand the position. More edits for clarity. I should probably just go to sleep :-)

MaxBarraclough 6y ago
I think I see where you're coming from, at some point it becomes a question of semantics. > the Affero GPL only differs in that I would have to give you source code (edit: previously typed "software") if I supply a binary for you to use over a network That doesn't sound right. You don't have to distribute a binary for the Affero GPL to require you to release your source. From the FSF: > The GNU Affero General Public License is a modified version of the ordinary GNU GPL version 3. It has one added requirement: if you run a modified program on a server and let other users communicate with it there, your server must also allow them to download the source code corresponding to the modified version running there. https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.en.html https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-affero-gpl.en.html
- mikekchar 6y ago
  Yes, the "them" refers to the users. If you have users of a binary server, you must allow those users to download the source code. You do not need to allow anyone who is not a user to do so, though. Edit (programmer needs sleep badly): Clearly it doesn't have to be a binary. It's any executable over a network. But you don't have to give the source cod to everyone, that's really my only point :-)