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I always struggle with racial (and religious) topics - everything about it is so emotionally charged and a lot of the time I find that data is presented superfi

by bresqa 6y ago

I always struggle with racial (and religious) topics - everything about it is so emotionally charged and a lot of the time I find that data is presented superficially and can support any claim you'd like it to support. I'd like to imagine that we're living in 2020 and that race is not as much as of a problem as for example economic inequality. For example - to me, a more plausible hypothesis in this "modern world" would be that people from poor neighbourhoods suffer from police violence more. Has anyone correlated those police departments with median income? Even statistical claims on this website seem charged to me sometimes - for example this is the first sentence on the site "Black people were 24% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population." - however upon (superficial) research - in 2016[1] of all crimes committed 26.9% were by black perpetrators. So in relation to that statistic - the other percentage doesn't seem that surprising any more. But without that extra piece of info the whole sentence (any maybe the whole site) exhibits bias because the correlation is skewed. [1] https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/topic-pages/tables/table-21 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-...

stonogo 6y ago
This sort of comparison is unacceptable. For one thing, "committing a crime" is insufficent justification for onsite execution by a police officer. For another thing, the table you linked is arrests -- not convictions, not even charges filed. You have, in other words constructed exactly the sort of thinly-supported narrative that you complained about in your opening salvo. We do live in 2020 and racism -- not "race" -- is in fact a problem, no matter what you'd like to imagine. Of course class-related analyses are available, but I'm not sure how much value there is to be had in continuing to engage on this topic before you take an opportunity to consider deeply what conclusions you are comfortable accepting and which ones you are merely interested in rendering less "surprising." I apologize if this comment comes across as hostile; I find your assessment here to be highly offensive. It's one thing to attempt to maintain objectivity; it's another to speak with such detachment and lack of self-awareness as to make it extremely difficult to accept your text at face value.
- bresqa 6y ago
  Your comment is exactly why I find these topics difficult - responses come back disproportionally emotional and as you put it "hostile" in relation to (what I believe to be) a pretty neutral comment. For one - I believe there is never sufficient justification for "onsite execution". I don't see how looking at convictions vs. arrests changes anything about that? We could compare it to convictions if you'd like - the gap might be even larger I believe. My main point was that I hypothesise most of these issues are in fact due to income inequality more than anything else. It's still a huge issue - but a whole other issue - why that income inequality gap might be larger within the black population in the US. Crime rate vs. number of persons killed is something that I find a lot more comfortable accepting then just blindly comparing the relations to the total population. It would be just as easy for me to question your detachment from reality or the lack of self-awareness.
  - stonogo 6y ago
    You said: "in 2016[1] of all crimes committed 26.9% were by black perpetrators" This is a wholly inaccurate summary of the link you provided, and even if it were an accurate summary does not justify the fact that black people are being killed by police in disproportionately higher numbers. The link you provided is an irrelevant distraction which contributes nothing to the issues surrounding police violence. What is neutral about that? And why would you even have an interest in being neutral about ending human lives?
    - bresqa 6y ago
      The entire point is "in disproportionately higher numbers" related to what? Just the entire population or their ratio in the total number or cases? If you believe the number of convictions makes a difference there - you're welcome to counter it with some numbers of your own. I do believe the percentage of arrests is the right number to compare it to here - as police violence happens exactly when the arrests are made. I do acknowledge that I used the wrong word "committed" where I could have written "arrested" - but here its just semantics and changes absolutely nothing. Why would I have "an interest in being neutral about ending human lives" - really dude? Beautiful stuff really.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
icebraining 6y ago
> of all crimes committed 26.9% were by black perpetrators. So in relation to that statistic If you accept the possibility that police killings may be skewed by racism, why are you simply assuming that arrests (and therefore trials and convictions) are not?
- bresqa 6y ago
  Where did I accept the possibility of police killings being skewed by racism? That might or might not be true - but I wasn't really looking at that. All I did was just interpret the existing numbers and correlate them to other statistics that make more sense to me (if we're talking about race and the percentage of single ethnicity in the number total of deaths, then to me it makes a lot more sense to look at the percentage of crime that ethnicity committed in total). Again - I'm trying very hard to detach the issue from emotions/race and just look at the numbers. Why there is a disproportional number of black people in the US being arrested or killed is certainly appalling - but its also a whole other issue.
  - icebraining 6y ago
    > Where did I accept the possibility of police killings being skewed by racism? That might or might not be true Saying that it may be true is accepting the possibility :) > All I did was just interpret the existing numbers and correlate them to other statistics that make more sense to me My point is that the correlation may obscure more than it reveals. It's like if someone in the Tower of Pisa said: "this windowsill is crooked, the vases I put there keep falling", and someone responded "that can't be, I measured it against the floor and they're perfectly parallel". > Again - I'm trying very hard to detach the issue from emotions/race and just look at the numbers. I understand that. But which numbers and comparisons are relevant, and which conclusions can be produced from such comparisons, is a matter of discussion. > Why there is a disproportional number of black people in the US being arrested or killed is certainly appalling - but its also a whole other issue. This I have to confess I don't understand. The site is trying to answer that exact question, and their answer is "racism". Now, they may be wrong, but I don't see how it's another issue... what issue are you focusing on, then?
mmsimanga 6y ago
I would add political to the number of topics that are difficult to discuss. Sitting in Africa, the issue of colonialism is one such topic. That colonialism was bad is something we all agree on. Trouble comes on how much blame of our current problems are due to colonialism or due to current corruption. It is such an emotive topic that typically pits the all our problems are due to colonialism against the all our problems are due to corrupt politicians. Good luck convincing either side that the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

by bresqa 6y ago

stonogo 6y ago

This sort of comparison is unacceptable. For one thing, "committing a crime" is insufficent justification for onsite execution by a police officer. For another thing, the table you linked is arrests -- not convictions, not even charges filed. You have, in other words constructed exactly the sort of thinly-supported narrative that you complained about in your opening salvo. We do live in 2020 and racism -- not "race" -- is in fact a problem, no matter what you'd like to imagine. Of course class-related analyses are available, but I'm not sure how much value there is to be had in continuing to engage on this topic before you take an opportunity to consider deeply what conclusions you are comfortable accepting and which ones you are merely interested in rendering less "surprising." I apologize if this comment comes across as hostile; I find your assessment here to be highly offensive. It's one thing to attempt to maintain objectivity; it's another to speak with such detachment and lack of self-awareness as to make it extremely difficult to accept your text at face value.

bresqa 6y ago
Your comment is exactly why I find these topics difficult - responses come back disproportionally emotional and as you put it "hostile" in relation to (what I believe to be) a pretty neutral comment. For one - I believe there is never sufficient justification for "onsite execution". I don't see how looking at convictions vs. arrests changes anything about that? We could compare it to convictions if you'd like - the gap might be even larger I believe. My main point was that I hypothesise most of these issues are in fact due to income inequality more than anything else. It's still a huge issue - but a whole other issue - why that income inequality gap might be larger within the black population in the US. Crime rate vs. number of persons killed is something that I find a lot more comfortable accepting then just blindly comparing the relations to the total population. It would be just as easy for me to question your detachment from reality or the lack of self-awareness.
- stonogo 6y ago
  You said: "in 2016[1] of all crimes committed 26.9% were by black perpetrators" This is a wholly inaccurate summary of the link you provided, and even if it were an accurate summary does not justify the fact that black people are being killed by police in disproportionately higher numbers. The link you provided is an irrelevant distraction which contributes nothing to the issues surrounding police violence. What is neutral about that? And why would you even have an interest in being neutral about ending human lives?
  - bresqa 6y ago
    The entire point is "in disproportionately higher numbers" related to what? Just the entire population or their ratio in the total number or cases? If you believe the number of convictions makes a difference there - you're welcome to counter it with some numbers of your own. I do believe the percentage of arrests is the right number to compare it to here - as police violence happens exactly when the arrests are made. I do acknowledge that I used the wrong word "committed" where I could have written "arrested" - but here its just semantics and changes absolutely nothing. Why would I have "an interest in being neutral about ending human lives" - really dude? Beautiful stuff really.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

icebraining 6y ago

> of all crimes committed 26.9% were by black perpetrators. So in relation to that statistic If you accept the possibility that police killings may be skewed by racism, why are you simply assuming that arrests (and therefore trials and convictions) are not?

bresqa 6y ago
Where did I accept the possibility of police killings being skewed by racism? That might or might not be true - but I wasn't really looking at that. All I did was just interpret the existing numbers and correlate them to other statistics that make more sense to me (if we're talking about race and the percentage of single ethnicity in the number total of deaths, then to me it makes a lot more sense to look at the percentage of crime that ethnicity committed in total). Again - I'm trying very hard to detach the issue from emotions/race and just look at the numbers. Why there is a disproportional number of black people in the US being arrested or killed is certainly appalling - but its also a whole other issue.
- icebraining 6y ago
  > Where did I accept the possibility of police killings being skewed by racism? That might or might not be true Saying that it may be true is accepting the possibility :) > All I did was just interpret the existing numbers and correlate them to other statistics that make more sense to me My point is that the correlation may obscure more than it reveals. It's like if someone in the Tower of Pisa said: "this windowsill is crooked, the vases I put there keep falling", and someone responded "that can't be, I measured it against the floor and they're perfectly parallel". > Again - I'm trying very hard to detach the issue from emotions/race and just look at the numbers. I understand that. But which numbers and comparisons are relevant, and which conclusions can be produced from such comparisons, is a matter of discussion. > Why there is a disproportional number of black people in the US being arrested or killed is certainly appalling - but its also a whole other issue. This I have to confess I don't understand. The site is trying to answer that exact question, and their answer is "racism". Now, they may be wrong, but I don't see how it's another issue... what issue are you focusing on, then?

mmsimanga 6y ago

I would add political to the number of topics that are difficult to discuss. Sitting in Africa, the issue of colonialism is one such topic. That colonialism was bad is something we all agree on. Trouble comes on how much blame of our current problems are due to colonialism or due to current corruption. It is such an emotive topic that typically pits the all our problems are due to colonialism against the all our problems are due to corrupt politicians. Good luck convincing either side that the answer lies somewhere in the middle.