5 ms·

>You can't have an absolute right to something that requires someone else to provide a service for you Like a lawyer? Pretty sure I have a right to one of them

by gte910h 16y ago

>You can't have an absolute right to something that requires someone else to provide a service for you Like a lawyer? Pretty sure I have a right to one of them when charged with a crime. I understand to go with the clean logic of Ayn Rand's definitely of rights and everything, but that doesn't mean it fits all situations of the word right. Positive rights have some traction and serve a useful purpose too, even though they do in fact require some taxation/other forms of forced payments to provide them.

maxharris 16y ago
The 'right' to an attorney should mean that the government cannot prevent you from attempting to obtain an attorney to represent you. (edit: added the italicized words) Edit: Don't many public defenders think of their jobs as a form of partial charity? Edit 2: Is it a violation of rights that these public defenders aren't the best lawyers available? I don't think so, and the onus is on people that accept positive rights to show that it is. Edit 3: You know, I'm not exactly sure that this is Rand's answer at all (I couldn't find it in the cursory glances I took at a couple of books). But it does at least reflect what I think about the right to an attorney, and I think it holds up pretty well!
- JoachimSchipper 16y ago
  Actually, many legal systems provide some way of getting free representation. The government is involved in many cases. Similarly, many states will intervene to prevent their citizens from starving, even if they have to spend everyone else's tax money to do so.
- ianb 16y ago
  Not that I'm a libertarian, but if I was I would be inclined to argue the right to an attorney is specifically in place when the government initiates legal action against you. Outside of specific government action you have no right to an attorney -- you can't for instance sue the government and demand the government provide you with an attorney to do so.
  - maxharris 16y ago
    The government may have wrongfully initiated the legal action, but this is not certain before the trial is over. Remember, in the case of guilt (context: when someone is guilty of violating an objective law, so this doesn't apply to all of today's laws), it is merely retaliating. This stuff isn't just an academic issue: "Shrinking funding and access to resources for public defenders and court-appointed attorneys is only making the problem worse." (See: http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Bad-Lawyering.php http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Bad-Lawyering.php) I support most of what the Innocence Project does, but I think that charity is the answer here (being a selfish person doesn't mean that I don't support charities; it just means that I don't think that such support earns me moral credit). If the government didn't pay for public defendants at all, I think that the Innocence Project might have an easier time raising money for more and better attorneys.
    - jbooth 16y ago
      Hang on, so you're saying suspend publicly provided attorneys for people who can't afford them? Is this one of those cases where they're more "free" because more of them are in jail?
      - maxharris 16y ago
        No, I'm saying that they'd get better representation if people didn't think "the government has already taken care of the problem, so why should I donate?" Imagine the effect of a government program intended to assist stranded motorists (suppose that the program maintained a fleet of trucks which carried common spare tires, gas, compressed air and the like). Fewer people would stop to help, and that program would function about as well as any other government program does, which is another way of saying that it would work a lot worse than any private roadside assistance program known today.
        krakensden 16y ago
        Either that, or it would become more like the private airplane market- totally inaccessible.
Symmetry 16y ago
But notice, the lawyer in question is hoping to make money off of representing you. As far as I can tell its always far better if the government collects taxes fairly from the entire population and pays some people to solve a problem, than either waiting passively for people of pure heart to fix the problem or arbitrarily forcing some particular group to solve it.

by gte910h 16y ago

maxharris 16y ago

The 'right' to an attorney should mean that the government cannot prevent you from attempting to obtain an attorney to represent you. (edit: added the italicized words) Edit: Don't many public defenders think of their jobs as a form of partial charity? Edit 2: Is it a violation of rights that these public defenders aren't the best lawyers available? I don't think so, and the onus is on people that accept positive rights to show that it is. Edit 3: You know, I'm not exactly sure that this is Rand's answer at all (I couldn't find it in the cursory glances I took at a couple of books). But it does at least reflect what I think about the right to an attorney, and I think it holds up pretty well!

JoachimSchipper 16y ago
Actually, many legal systems provide some way of getting free representation. The government is involved in many cases. Similarly, many states will intervene to prevent their citizens from starving, even if they have to spend everyone else's tax money to do so.
ianb 16y ago
Not that I'm a libertarian, but if I was I would be inclined to argue the right to an attorney is specifically in place when the government initiates legal action against you. Outside of specific government action you have no right to an attorney -- you can't for instance sue the government and demand the government provide you with an attorney to do so.
- maxharris 16y ago
  The government may have wrongfully initiated the legal action, but this is not certain before the trial is over. Remember, in the case of guilt (context: when someone is guilty of violating an objective law, so this doesn't apply to all of today's laws), it is merely retaliating. This stuff isn't just an academic issue: "Shrinking funding and access to resources for public defenders and court-appointed attorneys is only making the problem worse." (See: http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Bad-Lawyering.php http://www.innocenceproject.org/understand/Bad-Lawyering.php) I support most of what the Innocence Project does, but I think that charity is the answer here (being a selfish person doesn't mean that I don't support charities; it just means that I don't think that such support earns me moral credit). If the government didn't pay for public defendants at all, I think that the Innocence Project might have an easier time raising money for more and better attorneys.
  - jbooth 16y ago
    Hang on, so you're saying suspend publicly provided attorneys for people who can't afford them? Is this one of those cases where they're more "free" because more of them are in jail?
    - maxharris 16y ago
      No, I'm saying that they'd get better representation if people didn't think "the government has already taken care of the problem, so why should I donate?" Imagine the effect of a government program intended to assist stranded motorists (suppose that the program maintained a fleet of trucks which carried common spare tires, gas, compressed air and the like). Fewer people would stop to help, and that program would function about as well as any other government program does, which is another way of saying that it would work a lot worse than any private roadside assistance program known today.
      - krakensden 16y ago
        Either that, or it would become more like the private airplane market- totally inaccessible.

Symmetry 16y ago

But notice, the lawyer in question is hoping to make money off of representing you. As far as I can tell its always far better if the government collects taxes fairly from the entire population and pays some people to solve a problem, than either waiting passively for people of pure heart to fix the problem or arbitrarily forcing some particular group to solve it.