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My users who pay me for my proprietary software also get support from me. Frequently I see pirated software on their machines. I have no doubt that they'd pay m

My users who pay me for my proprietary software also get support from me. Frequently I see pirated software on their machines. I have no doubt that they'd pay me nothing given the opportunity. That's owner operated small businesses for you. You seem to have some utopian ideal where everyone is a giver but that's not the real world.

lmm 6y ago
The world doesn't owe you a business plan. If your business fundamentally relies on your users having no way to fix the bugs in the software you are selling them (which is what it means for software to be proprietary), then that is an immoral business.
- stormdennis 6y ago
  Assuming you write open source software, how do you persuade people to pay for it?
  - fsflover 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-source_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-sourc...
    - stormdennis 6y ago
      I don't think any of those models would work in the small business sector that I provide niche software for. The big open source projects supported by the likes of Facebook etc work because writing software is something Facebook do as an aid to their business rather than it being their business per se. So contributing to open source software is purely a way of reducing their own costs and maybe getting some kudos. If your fundamental business is writing software that you need to sell to people then making it open source makes as much sense as a corner shop operating on an honour system.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      One of the key ones in that list is advertising supported software, which is in my opinion less moral than proprietary software. Android and Chrome fit squarely into that bucket.
  - yani 6y ago
    SaaS model like GitLab but I read here yesterday that community edition != paid/enterprise edition. GPL license for free use. Charge for commercial use like Qt ... but apperently this is not working well.
    - syockit 6y ago
      The paid/enterprise-only extensions are still immoral though? How do you completely eliminate immorality from your software/service, other than charging only for technical support and prioritized bugfix? (I take it that's you were concerned regarding community edition != paid/enterprise edition)
- jfkebwjsbx 6y ago
  Some people have a need for a product. Someone provides a solution under some terms. Assuming the terms and prices are fair and no "bad practices" are going on (no excessive EULA/DRM, no ads, no enforced subscriptions, no online requirement, etc.), how is that immoral? The world does not owe devs a business model, you are right. The same way, the world does not owe users a solution under whatever terms they want, either.
  - lmm 6y ago
    > Assuming the terms and prices are fair and no "bad practices" are going on (no excessive EULA/DRM, no ads, no enforced subscriptions, no online requirement, etc.), how is that immoral? The point is that proprietary software is inherently that kind of bad practice - it means users can't fix bugs they encounter, or can't share their bugfixes. This is particularly vexing when the vendor also disclaims all warranties on the software, which is usual practice - reserving the right to sell something broken and unfixable. Compare e.g. car right-to-repair laws that require manufacturers to make their repair manuals available.
    - stormdennis 6y ago
      Thanks for calling my way of living immoral and then not having the decency to answer my question to you about how do it in a way that would mean I could ensure I get paid for coding and not get stolen from.
      - lmm 6y ago
        I mean, I work on custom software that my clients use in-house; my clients always get full source code and I bill them for my time. But I doubt that's particularly relevant to your situation. I don't know what would work for you. If you're doing in-person support for your users, that may well be a lot more valuable than the software itself. Maybe that's a viable business, or maybe it isn't. Again, the world doesn't owe you a business model. If you're selling shrink-wrapped software then my honest opinion is that that business is dying (with or without the open-source movement) and it's better to get out of it.

lmm 6y ago

The world doesn't owe you a business plan. If your business fundamentally relies on your users having no way to fix the bugs in the software you are selling them (which is what it means for software to be proprietary), then that is an immoral business.

stormdennis 6y ago
Assuming you write open source software, how do you persuade people to pay for it?
- fsflover 6y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-source_software https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_models_for_open-sourc...
  - stormdennis 6y ago
    I don't think any of those models would work in the small business sector that I provide niche software for. The big open source projects supported by the likes of Facebook etc work because writing software is something Facebook do as an aid to their business rather than it being their business per se. So contributing to open source software is purely a way of reducing their own costs and maybe getting some kudos. If your fundamental business is writing software that you need to sell to people then making it open source makes as much sense as a corner shop operating on an honour system.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    One of the key ones in that list is advertising supported software, which is in my opinion less moral than proprietary software. Android and Chrome fit squarely into that bucket.
- yani 6y ago
  SaaS model like GitLab but I read here yesterday that community edition != paid/enterprise edition. GPL license for free use. Charge for commercial use like Qt ... but apperently this is not working well.
  - syockit 6y ago
    The paid/enterprise-only extensions are still immoral though? How do you completely eliminate immorality from your software/service, other than charging only for technical support and prioritized bugfix? (I take it that's you were concerned regarding community edition != paid/enterprise edition)
jfkebwjsbx 6y ago
Some people have a need for a product. Someone provides a solution under some terms. Assuming the terms and prices are fair and no "bad practices" are going on (no excessive EULA/DRM, no ads, no enforced subscriptions, no online requirement, etc.), how is that immoral? The world does not owe devs a business model, you are right. The same way, the world does not owe users a solution under whatever terms they want, either.
- lmm 6y ago
  > Assuming the terms and prices are fair and no "bad practices" are going on (no excessive EULA/DRM, no ads, no enforced subscriptions, no online requirement, etc.), how is that immoral? The point is that proprietary software is inherently that kind of bad practice - it means users can't fix bugs they encounter, or can't share their bugfixes. This is particularly vexing when the vendor also disclaims all warranties on the software, which is usual practice - reserving the right to sell something broken and unfixable. Compare e.g. car right-to-repair laws that require manufacturers to make their repair manuals available.
  - stormdennis 6y ago
    Thanks for calling my way of living immoral and then not having the decency to answer my question to you about how do it in a way that would mean I could ensure I get paid for coding and not get stolen from.
    - lmm 6y ago
      I mean, I work on custom software that my clients use in-house; my clients always get full source code and I bill them for my time. But I doubt that's particularly relevant to your situation. I don't know what would work for you. If you're doing in-person support for your users, that may well be a lot more valuable than the software itself. Maybe that's a viable business, or maybe it isn't. Again, the world doesn't owe you a business model. If you're selling shrink-wrapped software then my honest opinion is that that business is dying (with or without the open-source movement) and it's better to get out of it.