6 ms·

I think it also works partly because the wages are more egalitarian. Developers and doctors don't make $200-$400k like they do in the U.S.

by pcurve 6y ago

DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
I don’t understand why we get paid so much here. I’m from the UK but have been working in the US since I got my degree and my total comp - after adjusting for cost-of-living is easily 2x-3x what it would be in the UK for the exact same work. It’s similar if you compare Seattle with Vancouver, BC - it’s only a 2-hour drive away, but salaries for the same work are around 50-66% of Seattle’s.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Because you participate more in the value of the product you produce? What would you prefer, than the executive board should keep all that instead?
  - DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
    In my current business at least: the market is 5x bigger than the UK’s (5x the population after-all). But that doesn’t explain other disparities.
    - apta 6y ago
      It just means that they're heavily underpaid in the UK.
- jackcosgrove 6y ago
  I would argue developers in the UK and Canada are underpaid. Silicon Valley is unique even in the US in that the companies see developers as revenue sources rather than costs.
  - mehrdadn 6y ago
    > I would argue developers in the UK and Canada are underpaid. What about non-software engineers?
    - jackcosgrove 6y ago
      My outsider impression of the UK, and other anglophone places outside certain American tech companies, is that technical roles are undervalued relative to business roles.
  - bambataa 6y ago
    Until fairly recently UK developers could earn far more by contracting. The job market was weirdly bimodal.
- coldcode 6y ago
  I live in a large, but not very tech, eastern city and I make about what interns get at Google. Then again the cost of living is way way less so I come out ahead.
- eigenvector 6y ago
  US tech pay is led by the FAANG companies, all of which are US-based and capture a massive share of all profit from Internet business. Everyone else is forced to catch up and try to compete with those pay levels. You may be doing the same work in Copenhagen or Calgary, but most likely for a company that generates way less money from that work.
- RhysU 6y ago
  A friend deliberately overpays his babysitter relative to market rates. Anytime his family needs help, the babysitter is happy to oblige. US FAANG employees are paid highly so that they do not look elsewhere. The better for the FAANG companies to hoover up any opportunity that another industry could conceivably address.
  - vimax 6y ago
    To do it in true FAANG style, you'd need to collude with all the other parents to set the market rate lower and ensure noone offers your babysitter anything higher.
- blaser-waffle 6y ago
  > It’s similar if you compare Seattle with Vancouver, BC - it’s only a 2-hour drive away, but salaries for the same work are around 50-66% of Seattle’s. USA-ian in Canada here, still technically a WA resident too -- compensation isn't normally that bad, the ~40% currency difference is what really hurts. Normally the Vancouver-Seattle difference isn't as pronounced, though it's still skewed heavily towards Seattle. The biggest difference, IMO, is that housing in the Vancouver area is crazy expensive, way more than Seattle, and completely out of sync for local salaries.
m0zg 6y ago
I think in a high margin business like software, "$200-400K" is "egalitarian", actually. Otherwise you need to redefine "egalitarian" to mean the opposite of what it means today.
- ineedasername 6y ago
  The concept of egalitarian isn't really tied to pay, except maybe as equal pay for equal work, at least within the same "all else being equal" framework. Egalitarian definition: relating to or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.
  - m0zg 6y ago
    Yes, your opportunities dramatically expand if you earn $400K. So unless you want everyone except the company shareholders to be poor, I don't see what your problem is with people being fairly compensated.
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      I'm not sure how you read my comment as not wanting fair compensation. But there is a difference between fair compensation and everyone paid the same. Equal access to opportunities doesn't mean everyone makes 400k, it would mean everyone starts with the same opportunities to get there, and their choices determine where they go. That said, we're not an egalitarian society. We may aspire to it, we may be closer to it than we were 200 years ago, but we're not there yet. In anycase, perfect egalitarianism is probably not possible. But for an excellent work on the subject, see John Rawls' work Justice as Fairness. As political philosophical texts go, it's fairly accessible to outsiders to the field, and it is comprehensive on the topic.
      - m0zg 6y ago
        You quite literally "start with the same opportunities" if you submit your resume to a FAANG company. In fact, if you're female or a minority, you start with markedly better opportunities, as they deliberately have a lower hiring bar for such folks to improve diversity. If this is not enough, I'm not sure what else FAANG companies could do for you to be satisfied.

I think it also works partly because the wages are more egalitarian. Developers and doctors don't make $200-$400k like they do in the U.S.

by pcurve 6y ago

I think it also works partly because the wages are more egalitarian. Developers and doctors don't make $200-$400k like they do in the U.S.

DaiPlusPlus 6y ago

I don’t understand why we get paid so much here. I’m from the UK but have been working in the US since I got my degree and my total comp - after adjusting for cost-of-living is easily 2x-3x what it would be in the UK for the exact same work. It’s similar if you compare Seattle with Vancouver, BC - it’s only a 2-hour drive away, but salaries for the same work are around 50-66% of Seattle’s.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Because you participate more in the value of the product you produce? What would you prefer, than the executive board should keep all that instead?
- DaiPlusPlus 6y ago
  In my current business at least: the market is 5x bigger than the UK’s (5x the population after-all). But that doesn’t explain other disparities.
  - apta 6y ago
    It just means that they're heavily underpaid in the UK.
jackcosgrove 6y ago
I would argue developers in the UK and Canada are underpaid. Silicon Valley is unique even in the US in that the companies see developers as revenue sources rather than costs.
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  > I would argue developers in the UK and Canada are underpaid. What about non-software engineers?
  - jackcosgrove 6y ago
    My outsider impression of the UK, and other anglophone places outside certain American tech companies, is that technical roles are undervalued relative to business roles.
- bambataa 6y ago
  Until fairly recently UK developers could earn far more by contracting. The job market was weirdly bimodal.
coldcode 6y ago
I live in a large, but not very tech, eastern city and I make about what interns get at Google. Then again the cost of living is way way less so I come out ahead.
eigenvector 6y ago
US tech pay is led by the FAANG companies, all of which are US-based and capture a massive share of all profit from Internet business. Everyone else is forced to catch up and try to compete with those pay levels. You may be doing the same work in Copenhagen or Calgary, but most likely for a company that generates way less money from that work.
RhysU 6y ago
A friend deliberately overpays his babysitter relative to market rates. Anytime his family needs help, the babysitter is happy to oblige. US FAANG employees are paid highly so that they do not look elsewhere. The better for the FAANG companies to hoover up any opportunity that another industry could conceivably address.
- vimax 6y ago
  To do it in true FAANG style, you'd need to collude with all the other parents to set the market rate lower and ensure noone offers your babysitter anything higher.
blaser-waffle 6y ago
> It’s similar if you compare Seattle with Vancouver, BC - it’s only a 2-hour drive away, but salaries for the same work are around 50-66% of Seattle’s. USA-ian in Canada here, still technically a WA resident too -- compensation isn't normally that bad, the ~40% currency difference is what really hurts. Normally the Vancouver-Seattle difference isn't as pronounced, though it's still skewed heavily towards Seattle. The biggest difference, IMO, is that housing in the Vancouver area is crazy expensive, way more than Seattle, and completely out of sync for local salaries.

m0zg 6y ago

I think in a high margin business like software, "$200-400K" is "egalitarian", actually. Otherwise you need to redefine "egalitarian" to mean the opposite of what it means today.

ineedasername 6y ago
The concept of egalitarian isn't really tied to pay, except maybe as equal pay for equal work, at least within the same "all else being equal" framework. Egalitarian definition: relating to or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.
- m0zg 6y ago
  Yes, your opportunities dramatically expand if you earn $400K. So unless you want everyone except the company shareholders to be poor, I don't see what your problem is with people being fairly compensated.
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    I'm not sure how you read my comment as not wanting fair compensation. But there is a difference between fair compensation and everyone paid the same. Equal access to opportunities doesn't mean everyone makes 400k, it would mean everyone starts with the same opportunities to get there, and their choices determine where they go. That said, we're not an egalitarian society. We may aspire to it, we may be closer to it than we were 200 years ago, but we're not there yet. In anycase, perfect egalitarianism is probably not possible. But for an excellent work on the subject, see John Rawls' work Justice as Fairness. As political philosophical texts go, it's fairly accessible to outsiders to the field, and it is comprehensive on the topic.
    - m0zg 6y ago
      You quite literally "start with the same opportunities" if you submit your resume to a FAANG company. In fact, if you're female or a minority, you start with markedly better opportunities, as they deliberately have a lower hiring bar for such folks to improve diversity. If this is not enough, I'm not sure what else FAANG companies could do for you to be satisfied.