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Timely article, but what about violent criminal activity during protests? Peaceful protests are wonderful and have been very effective throughout history. The

Timely article, but what about violent criminal activity during protests? Peaceful protests are wonderful and have been very effective throughout history. The protests we've seen for the past few days are not helping anything. Yes, people are angry at the criminal behavior of the police officer/murderer, but manifesting that anger by destroying property, looting, injuring, and threatening others, is only going to justify the use of more police violence.

asutekku 6y ago
I’ll just play the devil’s advocate, but when have peaceful protests ever helped the cause? Those are forgotten as soon as they are over.
- anonymousiam 6y ago
  https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gandhi-leads-civil-disobedience https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gandhi-leads-civ... https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protests-lessons/ https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protest...
- jbay808 6y ago
  Indian independence? Martin Luther King?
  - jude- 6y ago
    In both cases, the protestors were violently attacked over and over. Also, both Ghandi and MLK were murdered for their efforts.
    - jbay808 6y ago
      Yes, a peaceful protest can be violently attacked and still be a peaceful protest. It's not required that the police be peaceful, only the protesters.
      - anonymousiam 6y ago
        And that is exactly why they were successful. When governments/police crack down on peaceful protests, it shines the light on the oppressor's behavior and creates a strong sympathetic reaction. That reaction is what evokes the change.
  - ixtli 6y ago
    Ghandi is the face of that movement but was just the tip of what was a very bloody revolution. It is important that we think the movement was "non-violent" such that we can point to it to dissuade people from challenging the status quo in a material way.
    - pell 6y ago
      Gandhi was also not a pacifist. He strongly believed in the right of self-defense.
    - jbay808 6y ago
      Would you say that his protests didn't change anything and were forgotten as soon as they were over?
      - ixtli 6y ago
        No, the history taught about ghandi carefully selects instances of "non-violence". I don't think ghandi is responsible for how we learn about ghandi in the west. Just like MLK is regarded as "peaceful" when in fact he and others spoke quite a bit about the fact that there was never any response from white people unless property was attacked.
- hollander 6y ago
  Poland, Gdansk, Lech Walesa
- quicklime 6y ago
  Of all the civil rights leaders, I’d say people remember Martin Luther King Jr the best. It’s probably also worth asking: when have violent protests ever helped the cause? I think that the violence of the protests helped to get Derek Chauvin arrested. But I’m not sure that continued violence will help the broader movement.
  - throwanem 6y ago
    "I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” " MLK, Letter From a Birmingham Jail
    - quicklime 6y ago
      I actually agree with the protestors, not just in their goal but also in their methods thus far. Like I said in my earlier post, I think this helped get the police officer fired and arrested. I hope this doesn’t get me labeled as “white” or “moderate” (I am neither).
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ixtli 6y ago
All you need to do is watch videos of protests anywhere to see cops aggressing on protestors, shooting people on their lawns, arresting and shooting reporters for major news networks on camera. When people are aggressed upon by armed security forces in other countries I'll bet most dont take the side of the people with the guns, so why now?
- coolspot 6y ago
  There are examples of pure looting. E.g. The Grove in Los Angeles: https://youtu.be/hpXdXLaJhKE https://youtu.be/hpXdXLaJhKE
  - ssalazar 6y ago
    Ugly but beside the point. Why arent the police protecting these businesses, if looting is such a concern, rather than instigating peaceful protestors? Besides, these businesses are all insured; Im certain that Apple and Luxottica, some of the richest companies in the world, can write off the loss. By contrast, nothing will bring back George Floyd, let alone the countless black people afflicted by police brutality that weren't caught on camera. With millions still unemployed and a sense that society has left so many behind, COVID in the US was a powder keg looking for a match, and a breakdown of order shouldnt really be unexpected.
    - thephyber 6y ago
      I'm pro-protest and pro-police-accountability-reforms, but some of your logic fails. > Besides, these businesses are all insured Some of them are. But having to claim on insurance is an expensive proposition that eats into profit margins (which is extra difficult in the middle of a worldwide depression). > Im certain that Apple and Luxottica, some of the richest companies in the world, can write off the loss. Most companies aren't multinational megacorps in high profit businesses. I drove through South Central Los Angeles about 1 year after the Rodney King riots. I don't know what proportion of the businesses were rebuilt, but it was pretty clearly that many of the buildings hasn't been rebuilt. Large scale building damage takes a LONG time to rebuild and probably means the business can't run until it's done.
on_and_off 6y ago
They tried kneeling and it was super effective!!
- thephyber 6y ago
  But you know that they kneeled. Their marketing broke through your attention defenses. The problem is converting that into something tangible that furthers their goals.
throwanem 6y ago
Oh, I don't know. Peaceful protests of police violence have been a regular feature of life here in Baltimore, thanks to our famously corrupt and racist PD, but it took the 2015 Freddie Gray protests - which occurred in the wake of the same kind of murder as was done to George Floyd, and were violent enough to garner nationwide coverage - to spark the federal investigation that led to the 2017 consent decree and the ongoing scrutiny that, among other improvements in police behavior and in response to police misbehavior, looks to have so far at least kept Baltimore noticeably absent from the lists of cities seeing significant violence this time around. So, at least in my town, it looks a lot like violent protests of the sort you decry do help. Certainly nothing else has done as well.
- yters 6y ago
  I've heard the 2015 riots resulted in a stand down of the police force in Baltimore, and since then crime in the city has increased significantly. Sounds like the reason criminals are not rioting is because they won. Great for the criminals, but not great for their victims, which are probably mostly the improvished, not the affluent who can afford a replacement for the missing police. In all these riot situations, it is portrayed as the poor sticking it to the rich, who presumably are using the police to oppress the poor. But I suspect that in reality it is mostly the poor becoming even more downtrodden by the criminal elements, and the rich remain unaffected. Perhaps the rich even profit a bit from what happens, such as politicians winning more government money to "help with all the troubles".
  - throwanem 6y ago
    Leaving aside that the next plea I hear from black Baltimore for more policing on the BPD model will absolutely be the first - I find it odd that you know so much about this, and so little about other things people have said in this thread that you also disagree with. You've asked others to cite their sources. Why be so unforthcoming with your own?
    - yters 6y ago
      There's the homicide rate, which jumped from 33.8% in 2014 to 55.4% in 2015, and has stayed above 50% since. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore#Crime_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore#Crime_stati... A little further down: "Homicides in Baltimore are heavily concentrated within a small number of high-poverty neighborhoods." So, my prima facie impression from these data points is the stand down has not benefitted the poor.
gedy 6y ago
I think its root is in "direct action"[0], and intentional/encouraged by at least some. Others are just opportunists, for their own gain. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action
thephyber 6y ago
These are two separate things happening at near the same places. This is being done on purpose by people with anarchist tendencies -- to hide among legitimate protesters. Some agitators are anti-government. Others are full on anarchists. Others want to bait people into race wars (a la the Turner Diaries, cited by white nationalist mass shooters and the Oklahoma City bomber).
- anonymousiam 6y ago
  Do not forget about the Trump "resistors". I'm assuming that they are out with the mob too.

asutekku 6y ago

I’ll just play the devil’s advocate, but when have peaceful protests ever helped the cause? Those are forgotten as soon as they are over.

anonymousiam 6y ago
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gandhi-leads-civil-disobedience https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/gandhi-leads-civ... https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protests-lessons/ https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protest...
jbay808 6y ago
Indian independence? Martin Luther King?
- jude- 6y ago
  In both cases, the protestors were violently attacked over and over. Also, both Ghandi and MLK were murdered for their efforts.
  - jbay808 6y ago
    Yes, a peaceful protest can be violently attacked and still be a peaceful protest. It's not required that the police be peaceful, only the protesters.
    - anonymousiam 6y ago
      And that is exactly why they were successful. When governments/police crack down on peaceful protests, it shines the light on the oppressor's behavior and creates a strong sympathetic reaction. That reaction is what evokes the change.
- ixtli 6y ago
  Ghandi is the face of that movement but was just the tip of what was a very bloody revolution. It is important that we think the movement was "non-violent" such that we can point to it to dissuade people from challenging the status quo in a material way.
  - pell 6y ago
    Gandhi was also not a pacifist. He strongly believed in the right of self-defense.
  - jbay808 6y ago
    Would you say that his protests didn't change anything and were forgotten as soon as they were over?
    - ixtli 6y ago
      No, the history taught about ghandi carefully selects instances of "non-violence". I don't think ghandi is responsible for how we learn about ghandi in the west. Just like MLK is regarded as "peaceful" when in fact he and others spoke quite a bit about the fact that there was never any response from white people unless property was attacked.
hollander 6y ago
Poland, Gdansk, Lech Walesa
quicklime 6y ago
Of all the civil rights leaders, I’d say people remember Martin Luther King Jr the best. It’s probably also worth asking: when have violent protests ever helped the cause? I think that the violence of the protests helped to get Derek Chauvin arrested. But I’m not sure that continued violence will help the broader movement.
- throwanem 6y ago
  "I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” " MLK, Letter From a Birmingham Jail
  - quicklime 6y ago
    I actually agree with the protestors, not just in their goal but also in their methods thus far. Like I said in my earlier post, I think this helped get the police officer fired and arrested. I hope this doesn’t get me labeled as “white” or “moderate” (I am neither).

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ixtli 6y ago

All you need to do is watch videos of protests anywhere to see cops aggressing on protestors, shooting people on their lawns, arresting and shooting reporters for major news networks on camera. When people are aggressed upon by armed security forces in other countries I'll bet most dont take the side of the people with the guns, so why now?

coolspot 6y ago
There are examples of pure looting. E.g. The Grove in Los Angeles: https://youtu.be/hpXdXLaJhKE https://youtu.be/hpXdXLaJhKE
- ssalazar 6y ago
  Ugly but beside the point. Why arent the police protecting these businesses, if looting is such a concern, rather than instigating peaceful protestors? Besides, these businesses are all insured; Im certain that Apple and Luxottica, some of the richest companies in the world, can write off the loss. By contrast, nothing will bring back George Floyd, let alone the countless black people afflicted by police brutality that weren't caught on camera. With millions still unemployed and a sense that society has left so many behind, COVID in the US was a powder keg looking for a match, and a breakdown of order shouldnt really be unexpected.
  - thephyber 6y ago
    I'm pro-protest and pro-police-accountability-reforms, but some of your logic fails. > Besides, these businesses are all insured Some of them are. But having to claim on insurance is an expensive proposition that eats into profit margins (which is extra difficult in the middle of a worldwide depression). > Im certain that Apple and Luxottica, some of the richest companies in the world, can write off the loss. Most companies aren't multinational megacorps in high profit businesses. I drove through South Central Los Angeles about 1 year after the Rodney King riots. I don't know what proportion of the businesses were rebuilt, but it was pretty clearly that many of the buildings hasn't been rebuilt. Large scale building damage takes a LONG time to rebuild and probably means the business can't run until it's done.

on_and_off 6y ago

They tried kneeling and it was super effective!!

thephyber 6y ago
But you know that they kneeled. Their marketing broke through your attention defenses. The problem is converting that into something tangible that furthers their goals.

throwanem 6y ago

Oh, I don't know. Peaceful protests of police violence have been a regular feature of life here in Baltimore, thanks to our famously corrupt and racist PD, but it took the 2015 Freddie Gray protests - which occurred in the wake of the same kind of murder as was done to George Floyd, and were violent enough to garner nationwide coverage - to spark the federal investigation that led to the 2017 consent decree and the ongoing scrutiny that, among other improvements in police behavior and in response to police misbehavior, looks to have so far at least kept Baltimore noticeably absent from the lists of cities seeing significant violence this time around. So, at least in my town, it looks a lot like violent protests of the sort you decry do help. Certainly nothing else has done as well.

yters 6y ago
I've heard the 2015 riots resulted in a stand down of the police force in Baltimore, and since then crime in the city has increased significantly. Sounds like the reason criminals are not rioting is because they won. Great for the criminals, but not great for their victims, which are probably mostly the improvished, not the affluent who can afford a replacement for the missing police. In all these riot situations, it is portrayed as the poor sticking it to the rich, who presumably are using the police to oppress the poor. But I suspect that in reality it is mostly the poor becoming even more downtrodden by the criminal elements, and the rich remain unaffected. Perhaps the rich even profit a bit from what happens, such as politicians winning more government money to "help with all the troubles".
- throwanem 6y ago
  Leaving aside that the next plea I hear from black Baltimore for more policing on the BPD model will absolutely be the first - I find it odd that you know so much about this, and so little about other things people have said in this thread that you also disagree with. You've asked others to cite their sources. Why be so unforthcoming with your own?
  - yters 6y ago
    There's the homicide rate, which jumped from 33.8% in 2014 to 55.4% in 2015, and has stayed above 50% since. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore#Crime_statistics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Baltimore#Crime_stati... A little further down: "Homicides in Baltimore are heavily concentrated within a small number of high-poverty neighborhoods." So, my prima facie impression from these data points is the stand down has not benefitted the poor.

gedy 6y ago

I think its root is in "direct action"[0], and intentional/encouraged by at least some. Others are just opportunists, for their own gain. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action

thephyber 6y ago

These are two separate things happening at near the same places. This is being done on purpose by people with anarchist tendencies -- to hide among legitimate protesters. Some agitators are anti-government. Others are full on anarchists. Others want to bait people into race wars (a la the Turner Diaries, cited by white nationalist mass shooters and the Oklahoma City bomber).

anonymousiam 6y ago
Do not forget about the Trump "resistors". I'm assuming that they are out with the mob too.