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Well unfortunately there are people that can perfectly conceal their true feelings and intentions. Perhaps they are the ones that you need to interview. Though

Well unfortunately there are people that can perfectly conceal their true feelings and intentions. Perhaps they are the ones that you need to interview. Though I suppose by definition they won't be very forthcoming.

kstenerud 6y ago
That's actually an interesting topic in itself. It's been observed that many sociopaths and psychopaths don't spend long on one person. I wonder if it's because they eventually give off enough tells that others start to notice...
- ChuckMcM 6y ago
  That has been my experience with people I know who exhibit sociopathic tendencies. One of the more interesting tells is a projection onto people who can see that they are pretending.
  - selimthegrim 6y ago
    What do you mean? That they call them psychopaths?
    - loopz 6y ago
      That is an impossible accusation, as you could be wrong (plus too honest for own good), but the person would be masking better than you as well! Anyway, personal traits aren't criminal. I've heard sociopaths even excuse their "eccentric inattention to others" as possibly having asperger tendencies! Most people still lack experience to even understand they are poles apart. Regarding projections, burn the "rule book". Setting up "outside" people for failure is common but not enough to distinguish. Bullying, condescending remarks, getting others to chime in. It starts with boasting about the last victim, then you're next. Only thing that can stop it is people stop tolerating abuse in their environment. USA is now "it".
      - ChuckMcM 6y ago
        Agree with this. I also realize I wasn't clear here, so lets says you have a person A who is a sociopath talk to person B. After that interaction person A comes to person C (me in this example) and says "I don't know, they strike me as a sociopath." Now in these cases, when I've had enough interaction with Person A in other situations, to feel confident in my understanding of their challenges, and when the feedback on Person B from other sources are not reflective of that perception, and are typically hard over the other way ("this person is so empathic" kinds of things). I hypothesize that the body language of Person B was signaling to Person A that their masking was not as effective as they would have liked. The other thing I wanted to be clear about is that it isn't a judgement about them either way, people are who they are. What is important as a manager is understanding the dynamics of your team and how they perceive the world and evaluate it. One has to do that if you have any chance at all of working together effectively.
        loopz 6y ago
        If A is a bully, categorize B as possible future mark. This for very few A, B and opportunity. If A is not a conscious bully (for lack of a better term), B could be perceived as artificial, weak, blunt, out of bounds, insulting, exploitative, etc. Reaction is to push "out" and "defend", maybe "as if" leader. Introspection at A may overcome reaction, though may need reassurance from respected source (=leadership). A and B will probably never work great together, though minimal interaction can work consciously. How A and B relates defines span of real org culture (in heaven).
    - ChuckMcM 6y ago
      Yes, sometimes in so many words, and sometimes obliquely, but essentially correct. Again, not a doctor, nor do I have a tremendous amount of interaction with known sociopaths.
- vmception 6y ago
  Some of my business partners are sociopaths and psychopaths. (Despite the various people that will clarify the difference, I feel like these are not mutually exclusive terms.) Sometimes they want to do fraudulent things and are obviously willing to implicate others and I just steer them away and give them another option. I think they like that they are spotted but not shunned. Or maybe I'm a mark to them, or maybe I'm a sociopath too. To the top of society you say? That's the plan.. But they aren't retreating because they've been found out. I just point out how the legitimate way is actually more lucrative. (ie. maybe they want a commission deal on an impossible financial product that a client is interested in because the risks haven't been disclosed, I tell them we can offer a legitimate financial product with 2% management fees and 20% of profits and make way more money)
jaggederest 6y ago
I think it's very interesting. I, like I suppose many people in this thread, am virtually always consciously masking in interactions with people. I'm also happy to explain this to folks who are interested, and I haven't ever been called out on it, so you could say that I'm "perfect" in that regard. I doubt whether I adhere perfectly to "normal" behavior, but people don't ask about it, at least. I think it's just a matter of effective control of yourself and a full understanding of the people and situation you're in. Most people on the spectrum struggle with the understanding bit, or the control bit, or both. I'm really lucky in that I'm pretty decent at both halves, so I don't think there's a true "secret to learn", it's more about capacity and ability. The biggest thing I've learned is that I don't really like myself when I'm in full-facsimile mode, and so I consciously try to lower the facade whenever possible, but it's difficult after a lifetime of training by social sanctions.
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  > The biggest thing I've learned is that I don't really like myself when I'm in full-facsimile mode, and so I consciously try to lower the facade whenever possible, but it's difficult after a lifetime of training by social sanctions Care to elaborate on this? What is the facsimile mode? My intuition tells me it’s the mirroring of the social interaction. If that’s what you mean I might have similar feelings towards it, I sometimes find some interactions awkward if I am too aware. If im lost in the flow it all goes much better
  - jaggederest 6y ago
    I just mean being fully in the facade of making all the expressions, gestures, and small talk stuff. Basically acting "normal" as much as I can. It's a lot of work, and it feels very fake. It feels disrespectful of the people around me, if I don't "mean it" when I say "Hey how's it going" and talk about the weather and sports and smile and nod.
    - onemoresoop 6y ago
      I cannot do facade at all but I could comfortably be me under certain conditions: under low noise environment both physical and information, if I am not stressed out for another reason. I do feel awkward if I present something and I am not prepared but under certain conditions also I can wing it out nicely. It does depend a lot on whether I fit in within a group or not. If you think about it, forcing it when it's not there is really not very productive. I am still not sure whether I am on the spectrum and wouldn't help me out much to be diagnosed, I've accepted a long time ago that I am somewhat different from the norm but not necessarily in a bad way, I simply am not a very good speaking person - I do excel in other modes of communication, just not with words. But I guess with hard work one can train to perform something that they're not natively apt to do just to get the job done, one doesn't have to strive to be best because that puts too much pressure and leads to stress. I hope you be compassionate and comfortable with yourself:) Let me ask you one more thing. Do you dance at all? If not can you describe why not? I'm very curious.
barry-cotter 6y ago
There are far more people who effortlessly self-modify to believe and feel what is most socially helpful, without conscious consideration. We call them “normal”.

kstenerud 6y ago

That's actually an interesting topic in itself. It's been observed that many sociopaths and psychopaths don't spend long on one person. I wonder if it's because they eventually give off enough tells that others start to notice...

ChuckMcM 6y ago
That has been my experience with people I know who exhibit sociopathic tendencies. One of the more interesting tells is a projection onto people who can see that they are pretending.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  What do you mean? That they call them psychopaths?
  - loopz 6y ago
    That is an impossible accusation, as you could be wrong (plus too honest for own good), but the person would be masking better than you as well! Anyway, personal traits aren't criminal. I've heard sociopaths even excuse their "eccentric inattention to others" as possibly having asperger tendencies! Most people still lack experience to even understand they are poles apart. Regarding projections, burn the "rule book". Setting up "outside" people for failure is common but not enough to distinguish. Bullying, condescending remarks, getting others to chime in. It starts with boasting about the last victim, then you're next. Only thing that can stop it is people stop tolerating abuse in their environment. USA is now "it".
    - ChuckMcM 6y ago
      Agree with this. I also realize I wasn't clear here, so lets says you have a person A who is a sociopath talk to person B. After that interaction person A comes to person C (me in this example) and says "I don't know, they strike me as a sociopath." Now in these cases, when I've had enough interaction with Person A in other situations, to feel confident in my understanding of their challenges, and when the feedback on Person B from other sources are not reflective of that perception, and are typically hard over the other way ("this person is so empathic" kinds of things). I hypothesize that the body language of Person B was signaling to Person A that their masking was not as effective as they would have liked. The other thing I wanted to be clear about is that it isn't a judgement about them either way, people are who they are. What is important as a manager is understanding the dynamics of your team and how they perceive the world and evaluate it. One has to do that if you have any chance at all of working together effectively.
      - loopz 6y ago
        If A is a bully, categorize B as possible future mark. This for very few A, B and opportunity. If A is not a conscious bully (for lack of a better term), B could be perceived as artificial, weak, blunt, out of bounds, insulting, exploitative, etc. Reaction is to push "out" and "defend", maybe "as if" leader. Introspection at A may overcome reaction, though may need reassurance from respected source (=leadership). A and B will probably never work great together, though minimal interaction can work consciously. How A and B relates defines span of real org culture (in heaven).
  - ChuckMcM 6y ago
    Yes, sometimes in so many words, and sometimes obliquely, but essentially correct. Again, not a doctor, nor do I have a tremendous amount of interaction with known sociopaths.
vmception 6y ago
Some of my business partners are sociopaths and psychopaths. (Despite the various people that will clarify the difference, I feel like these are not mutually exclusive terms.) Sometimes they want to do fraudulent things and are obviously willing to implicate others and I just steer them away and give them another option. I think they like that they are spotted but not shunned. Or maybe I'm a mark to them, or maybe I'm a sociopath too. To the top of society you say? That's the plan.. But they aren't retreating because they've been found out. I just point out how the legitimate way is actually more lucrative. (ie. maybe they want a commission deal on an impossible financial product that a client is interested in because the risks haven't been disclosed, I tell them we can offer a legitimate financial product with 2% management fees and 20% of profits and make way more money)

jaggederest 6y ago

I think it's very interesting. I, like I suppose many people in this thread, am virtually always consciously masking in interactions with people. I'm also happy to explain this to folks who are interested, and I haven't ever been called out on it, so you could say that I'm "perfect" in that regard. I doubt whether I adhere perfectly to "normal" behavior, but people don't ask about it, at least. I think it's just a matter of effective control of yourself and a full understanding of the people and situation you're in. Most people on the spectrum struggle with the understanding bit, or the control bit, or both. I'm really lucky in that I'm pretty decent at both halves, so I don't think there's a true "secret to learn", it's more about capacity and ability. The biggest thing I've learned is that I don't really like myself when I'm in full-facsimile mode, and so I consciously try to lower the facade whenever possible, but it's difficult after a lifetime of training by social sanctions.

onemoresoop 6y ago
> The biggest thing I've learned is that I don't really like myself when I'm in full-facsimile mode, and so I consciously try to lower the facade whenever possible, but it's difficult after a lifetime of training by social sanctions Care to elaborate on this? What is the facsimile mode? My intuition tells me it’s the mirroring of the social interaction. If that’s what you mean I might have similar feelings towards it, I sometimes find some interactions awkward if I am too aware. If im lost in the flow it all goes much better
- jaggederest 6y ago
  I just mean being fully in the facade of making all the expressions, gestures, and small talk stuff. Basically acting "normal" as much as I can. It's a lot of work, and it feels very fake. It feels disrespectful of the people around me, if I don't "mean it" when I say "Hey how's it going" and talk about the weather and sports and smile and nod.
  - onemoresoop 6y ago
    I cannot do facade at all but I could comfortably be me under certain conditions: under low noise environment both physical and information, if I am not stressed out for another reason. I do feel awkward if I present something and I am not prepared but under certain conditions also I can wing it out nicely. It does depend a lot on whether I fit in within a group or not. If you think about it, forcing it when it's not there is really not very productive. I am still not sure whether I am on the spectrum and wouldn't help me out much to be diagnosed, I've accepted a long time ago that I am somewhat different from the norm but not necessarily in a bad way, I simply am not a very good speaking person - I do excel in other modes of communication, just not with words. But I guess with hard work one can train to perform something that they're not natively apt to do just to get the job done, one doesn't have to strive to be best because that puts too much pressure and leads to stress. I hope you be compassionate and comfortable with yourself:) Let me ask you one more thing. Do you dance at all? If not can you describe why not? I'm very curious.

barry-cotter 6y ago

There are far more people who effortlessly self-modify to believe and feel what is most socially helpful, without conscious consideration. We call them “normal”.