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Caught on camera, police explode in rage and violence across the US

141 points by MDWolinski 6y ago

GoodJokes 6y ago
Let’s be very clear, police are assaulting citizens in order to protect capital. Police protect capital not humans.
- pozdnyshev 6y ago
  It’s really not rocket science folks, this guy gets it
- raincom 6y ago
  Slave patrols was another instance of protecting 'capital'.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  > in order to protect capital Doesn't look so to me. instead I think it's because those policemen (which are not all policemen) enjoy being others.
novaleaf 6y ago
It's a tough situation for police too. On one hand, how to you stop those taking advantage of the situation by looting/burning? On the other hand, how do they show tolerance for non-aggressive civil disobedience? Should anyone breaking curfew be subject to rough treatment? Should the police stand idle while people burn and loot? How can peaceful protesters be protected while looters/abusers are using them as shields for their activities? PS: If replying, please be civil!
- mavsman 6y ago
  Yes, gentleness and civility is appreciated for sure.
- yedava 6y ago
  The protests are happening because the police have made a habit of treating the people as the enemy. So policing as usual, with excessive displays of force just because they can get away with it, will do nothing to quell the violence. I think the way forward is let police do what they need to, but also allow the people to prosecute police when they step out of bounds. The current culture of protecting abusers among the police needs to go away.
  - onemoresoop 6y ago
    Yes, this sounds like a workable path to a better future. The prevalence of cameras and incident footage would steer justice in the right direction IMO. Only if police lose the protection from prosecution. If that happens we’d see how easy things will “fix” themselves, the police will police themselves too
  - srean 6y ago
    The lawyers defending the cops would be paid by tax payers, correct ? If I am not mistaken, fines, if imposed on the cops would be paid using tax payer's money too.
- MDWolinski 6y ago
  In general, I think the problem that we have in the US is that the militarization of the police forces have upped the conflict when these situations arise. What generally happens is that protests begin and the police departments move in to shut it down, instead of trying to contain it and let the protesters get their message and frustrations out. When you see the videos of aggressive action against people who are peacefully protesting, then it causes more frustration and anger with the police which escalates and creates more conflict. I think the French generally handle protests in a way that allow the protests to proceed until they reach a certain point. Yes, private property is damaged/destroyed (ie cars burning etc), but generally the protests are allowed to proceed. If the police in our country recognized that people need to protest, to vent their frustrations and contain it to a mostly orderly affair, we might be better off for it.
- mcphage 6y ago
  It is definitely hard to know where to draw the line. But there’s a common rhetorical tactic in situations like these, where it’s hard to know. And that is: to say, well, since we don’t know where to draw the line, then everything is permissible (or everything is forbidden, depending on what side someone is arguing) But the truth is, while the line may be hard to draw—and in reality, there probably will never be a perfectly defined line—there are always cases that are definitively on one side or the other. And police violence against non-violent protests will always be on the “unacceptable” side, no matter where it ends up being. Some situations are grey. But it does not follow that all situations are.
- mercer 6y ago
  You don't attack non-violent protestors or bystanders. You use proportional violence and only as a last resort. But more importantly, you avoid these kinds of situations by not being an absolutely inhumane and racist police force that should be a disgrace to any nation that calls itself civilized. I do find it fascinating and a bit scary that you can read this article, watch the linked videos, and then come up with a comment like this though. Is this kind of stuff that normalized in the US?
  - MDWolinski 6y ago
    Yes, unfortunately, it is normalized, even 9 years ago, the UC Davis pepper spray incident shocked people, but we hardly have changed since then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UC_Davis_pepper_spray_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UC_Davis_pepper_spray_incident
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    If you go to /r/publicfreakout and sort by /rising, you will see LOTS of videos of some rioters being extremely violent. Two sides to every story. Peaceful protesters deserve respect and to be heard. Rioters and looters should be dealt with harshly by the law.
    - sbilstein 6y ago
      Do you not see the dozens of videos on that sub showing protestors being shot, shoved down, tear gassed, for nothing?
- srean 6y ago
  > It's a tough situation for police Pray explain what is so tough about refraining from shooting tear gas canisters right in the face of an unarmed civilian from distance of few tens of meters ?
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    Probably the same tough behavior that's preventing rioters from burning down poor immigrant small businesses. Human stupidity and the law of averages.
    - komali2 6y ago
      It would be as easy for the cops as staying home, because that's literally all they have to do to prevent violence in the streets. https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proactive-policing-crime-20170925-story.html https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proacti...
mavsman 6y ago
Is there a specific point at which police are or are not allowed to pepper spray people? Use tasers? Use other hopefully non-lethal force like this? These videos are really sad and I wonder when these actions are actually acceptable.
- loopz 6y ago
  Such scenes can happen in any country, but when the enemy is the people it just festers and escalates. With great leaders they could deescalate, but Republicans are doubling down all the way now..
- dredmorbius 6y ago
  Rules of engagement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_engagement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_engagement https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ending-excessive-police-force-starts-with-new-rules-of-engagement/2014/12/25/7fa379c0-8a1e-11e4-a085-34e9b9f09a58_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ending-excessive-pol... https://www.citylab.com/equity/2014/11/how-police-rules-of-engagement-differ-around-the-world/383188/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2014/11/how-police-rules-of-e...
verdverm 6y ago
I forgot about that, and how pissed it made me. Also forgot how people revenge killed good, innocent cops https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-brooklyn-sources-article-1.2051941 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-bro...
- verdverm 6y ago
  Do those of you downvoting me, do you think it's because I think those officers are innocent or something? They are guilty. I also think there are many people using this tragedy as an excuse to commit crime and somehow justify their behavior via a bifurcation of their world view. Are you applying your beliefs about a group (the police in this case) at an individual level or in one broad stroke? Is not the definition of bias / prejudice (racism as a subset?) essentially applying beliefs at the group level rather than the individual level?
  - komali2 6y ago
    > excuse to commit crime When cops break the law, and that's what they're doing here, they destroy faith in the justice system, in rule of law. What's crime? Is looting a Target, crime? Sure, according to tons of various laws in the USA, it is. Think about it another way though - there's a pile of food, more food than anybody could possibly eat before it spoils. In fact, lots of it does get thrown away, because it spoils. You're hungry, you walk up, take some, eat it, and leave. Did you just do something unethical? You take a TV, a pure form of entertainment and nothing more. Did you just do something Bad? Hm. Maybe, if I followed a very very long chain of events, I could say that the taking of the TV meant a CEO got to buy 1/100th less TVs for himself, sure, that's kinda bad I guess. Is it... worst than someone with a state-sponsored monopoly on violence doing, well, any of the following? : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373619 There is no "excused crime" happening here. It's people recognizing that the rule of law is broken, that those with the Most Might are doing as they please, and telling themselves "well fuck it, I'm going to get a TV then." Expectation of the citizenry to, uh, "respect property rights" (lmfao) is absurd when we don't even expect our police to respect the rights of People to exist without violence being committed against them. So in short, who gives a fuck if target loses TVs - until we solve police brutality to the point that every cop is held criminally accountable for unethical violence, I say let it all burn, because the harm done by a looted target is immeasurably less than even a single instance of police brutality.
verdverm 6y ago
Are there videos where protesters are beyond acceptable behavior? Rioters? I doubt this is a one way street by any measure. https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-brooklyn-sources-article-1.2051941 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-bro... There was some pretty awful things happening on the live streams last night. I'm surprised by how many people streamed themselves committing crimes. Are they ignorant or just dumb? The police just started taking pictures of everyone
- verdverm 6y ago
  I guess you get down voted for not blindly becoming outraged at only one side. I'm just not about getting myself that emotional ever.
  - testbot123 6y ago
    I think you're being downvoted because you're in a thread about police brutality and are attempting to frame this as the fault of the people being brutalized.
    - verdverm 6y ago
      I think anyone who wrongs another is ...wrong Is there something wrong with that? (where is the average moral compass of society today? how far am I from that?) Is asking about how people can condemn one version of malevolence and condon another wrong? (just noticed how close malevolence is to "male violence") Are we past the point of trying to hold each other to higher standards? (is that what the protests are about?) What percentage of the protesters / rioters would not be there if they had jobs to go to? (is this more accentuated because the covid shelter in place is ending?)
      - jvdizzle 6y ago
        Literally no one is condoning assassination of police officers on- or off-duty. No one is condoning rioting or looting. But we are adult enough to understand that rioting and looting are the result of civil unrest when the people do not feel heard.
bsd44 6y ago
United States is a police state. I said it 20 years ago, people laughed. Now you see if for yourself. American police have positioned themselves as the enemy of the people because they see people as their enemy. And the only way to stop the enemy is by applying brute force. If they're doing all this in front of cameras, imagine what they do when nobody is looking. Whereas in other countries, such as the UK, police are considered civilians in a uniform and behave accordingly.
- _xerces_ 6y ago
  How did this come about, is it the consequence of an armed society, or something else unique to Americans?
  - bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
    Militarization of the police following 9/11.
    - pluc 6y ago
      I think it's more militarization of the police because of easy access to guns (so logically police has to have bigger better gear) and erosion of rights following 9/11 (and the gradual complacency/acceptance of it). Mix in a long history or racism, easy access to information - stir and wait for it to explode.
    - ttfkam 6y ago
      People of color throughout this nation's history would disagree that it only began in 2001. It's well documented that modern policing in the US began in the model of slave patrols. And it shows.
    - corny 6y ago
      Or in 1980, Norco California, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norco_shootout#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norco_shootout#Legacy The police were outgunned by a group of bank robbers.
  - 6y ago
terakilobyte 6y ago
As a veteran this hits me particularly hard. This kind of force goes beyond most uses of force I personally used in Afghanistan and Iraq, actual fighting being the exception. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’d be brought up on charges if we treated nonviolent people the way these videos portray.
- awillen 6y ago
  It's unbelievable - you'd absolutely be brought up on charges if you used tear gas, which is clearly prohibited during war. Hundreds of tear gas canisters got fired off at US citizens by police last night, though. Insane.
  - mixmastamyk 6y ago
    Sounds like a good way to get looters to disperse without further violence. What am I missing?
    - testbot123 6y ago
      > “Tear gas is considered a riot control agent because the effects dissipate a short time after exposure,’’ said Kelsey Davenport, director for nonproliferation policy at the Arms Control Association. “But even though the effects of tear gas wear off, its symptoms are harsh and terrifying, including severe eye irritations and difficulty breathing. > “The United States may justify firing tear gas [...] as legal, but the decision to use an indiscriminate, psychologically terrifying toxic chemical was excessive and certainly immoral." https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/11/27/tear-gas-forbidden-war-but-legal-use-civilians-and-migrants/2133144002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/11/27/tear-gas-forb...
      - Balgair 6y ago
        The acoup blog has an amazingly detailed post on chemical weapons and the reasons behind their disuse today: https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-chemical-weapons-anymore/ https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch... TLDR: They hit you just as hard as they hit the enemy and they are wildly unpredictable.
ohiovr 6y ago
Don't come to my town to burn it down or the law will burn you down.
eezurr 6y ago
There's two sides to every story. And every business/organization has bad apples. Achieving perfection becomes order of magnitudes more expensive the closer you are to achieving it, so some level of acceptance that factors economic cost must be reached. The police are humans too. Knowing people are throwing Molotov Cocktails and bricks at police cars, I wouldn't sit still in my car if people, I mean, a mob (mentality) surrounded it. Self preservation. My theory on why the police need to use some level of brutality is because a mob mentality is an animal. It's an amorphous mammalian manifestation that is afraid of loud noises, pain, and losing it's ability to breath easily. So they use counterpart tools to control it, because when this animal cant be controlled, the whole city could be be razed in flames. (As an example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#Destruction_of_Koreatown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#Destruc... ) Im not excusing shitty behavior, but it's worth considering there are millions of events going on in these protests, and all the excess force ones fit in a bullet list on my monitor. Also, in many of the listed events, the cops told people to move away or go back inside repeatedly before taking action. From their perspective, keeping battle formation is necessary to success. And lawfully, you are supposed to comply with this demand. Just things to consider. I hope I'm not gut-reaction-down voted for taking the middle ground.
- _bxg1 6y ago
  The problem is that, by your definition, the police are turning into an animal too. They're supposed to be better than that and work to lower the tension, but instead they react and escalate things. If they can't be better than that, we shouldn't be paying them and giving them guns. And we shouldn't be exempting them from prosecution for their actions.
  - eezurr 6y ago
    The police are too organized IMO to be acting like an animal (barring the bad apples). I also don't view the police force as one identity, just like (I imagine) you don't view the protesters by the actions of the rioters. It doesn't help that the police all dress the same, so the brain lumps all of them into one identity, and people focus on the bad actions of the few. They are in an incredibly difficult situation, and putting their lives at risk. I think there are plenty of cops who care about their community, but they do what they have to do because there is no efficient way to communicate to or painlessly control an emotional mob of people (plus bad actors climbing out of the woodwork to cause harm to the community). When you talk to a mob, you aren't talking to anyone.
hedora 6y ago
This abuse of power is the direct result of the militarization of our police force. I say we take away their guns. If a suspect is brandishing a firearm, they can call in a separate unit allowed to carry weapons. Also, no more riot gear. The police can’t be trusted with it. Let the national guard have it, but train them for emergency response, not hunting down crooks.
- ponsin 6y ago
  If you can't trust the police with guns or riot gear then what is the point of them. If all they are reduced to are official naggers then they will end up having to call the actual police (the people who are allowed to have guns and riot gear) and the actual police will end up doing what the current police do. A better solution would be to provide better training and enforcement of police behavior.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    You can't trust most people with a gun. That's the problem. Guns also bring tension to most situations. How often do you visit people with a pistol attached to your hip? Do they all go, "Oh, yeah, feel even safer now that you're here." Probably not - they're worried you're going to do something stupid and shoot them. No one I know feels safer with armed police around and tensions frequently escalate with them around. We all go, "this man has a gun and could kill us - he will do it too because he knows he will get away clean and free." Training isn't sufficient. If there are real consequences for police and it shows that they face the same consequences the rest of us do for many years - maybe then. But that day will not be for 10+ years. For now, it's much easier to say and act on taking away their weapons that are meant to kill people.
    - ponsin 6y ago
      In fact I do feel safer when the security guard in front of my kid's school is armed. That security guard has been trained and will suffer big consequences if he uses the gun improperly. I guess that if you feel unsafe around armed security guards I can't argue with your feelings
xupybd 6y ago
The protests might lead to real change and save lives. The riots will get people killed and are destroying businesses. Events like this are as bad as the original event https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/22-arrested-60-looters-detained-in-Oakland-15305244.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/22-arrested-60-l... If this has deteriorated to an eye for an eye I'm not sure where it will end. I hope things get better before there is more loss of life.

141 points by MDWolinski 6y ago

GoodJokes 6y ago

Let’s be very clear, police are assaulting citizens in order to protect capital. Police protect capital not humans.

pozdnyshev 6y ago
It’s really not rocket science folks, this guy gets it
raincom 6y ago
Slave patrols was another instance of protecting 'capital'.
cutemonster 6y ago
> in order to protect capital Doesn't look so to me. instead I think it's because those policemen (which are not all policemen) enjoy being others.

novaleaf 6y ago

It's a tough situation for police too. On one hand, how to you stop those taking advantage of the situation by looting/burning? On the other hand, how do they show tolerance for non-aggressive civil disobedience? Should anyone breaking curfew be subject to rough treatment? Should the police stand idle while people burn and loot? How can peaceful protesters be protected while looters/abusers are using them as shields for their activities? PS: If replying, please be civil!

mavsman 6y ago
Yes, gentleness and civility is appreciated for sure.
yedava 6y ago
The protests are happening because the police have made a habit of treating the people as the enemy. So policing as usual, with excessive displays of force just because they can get away with it, will do nothing to quell the violence. I think the way forward is let police do what they need to, but also allow the people to prosecute police when they step out of bounds. The current culture of protecting abusers among the police needs to go away.
- onemoresoop 6y ago
  Yes, this sounds like a workable path to a better future. The prevalence of cameras and incident footage would steer justice in the right direction IMO. Only if police lose the protection from prosecution. If that happens we’d see how easy things will “fix” themselves, the police will police themselves too
- srean 6y ago
  The lawyers defending the cops would be paid by tax payers, correct ? If I am not mistaken, fines, if imposed on the cops would be paid using tax payer's money too.
MDWolinski 6y ago
In general, I think the problem that we have in the US is that the militarization of the police forces have upped the conflict when these situations arise. What generally happens is that protests begin and the police departments move in to shut it down, instead of trying to contain it and let the protesters get their message and frustrations out. When you see the videos of aggressive action against people who are peacefully protesting, then it causes more frustration and anger with the police which escalates and creates more conflict. I think the French generally handle protests in a way that allow the protests to proceed until they reach a certain point. Yes, private property is damaged/destroyed (ie cars burning etc), but generally the protests are allowed to proceed. If the police in our country recognized that people need to protest, to vent their frustrations and contain it to a mostly orderly affair, we might be better off for it.
mcphage 6y ago
It is definitely hard to know where to draw the line. But there’s a common rhetorical tactic in situations like these, where it’s hard to know. And that is: to say, well, since we don’t know where to draw the line, then everything is permissible (or everything is forbidden, depending on what side someone is arguing) But the truth is, while the line may be hard to draw—and in reality, there probably will never be a perfectly defined line—there are always cases that are definitively on one side or the other. And police violence against non-violent protests will always be on the “unacceptable” side, no matter where it ends up being. Some situations are grey. But it does not follow that all situations are.
mercer 6y ago
You don't attack non-violent protestors or bystanders. You use proportional violence and only as a last resort. But more importantly, you avoid these kinds of situations by not being an absolutely inhumane and racist police force that should be a disgrace to any nation that calls itself civilized. I do find it fascinating and a bit scary that you can read this article, watch the linked videos, and then come up with a comment like this though. Is this kind of stuff that normalized in the US?
- MDWolinski 6y ago
  Yes, unfortunately, it is normalized, even 9 years ago, the UC Davis pepper spray incident shocked people, but we hardly have changed since then. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UC_Davis_pepper_spray_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UC_Davis_pepper_spray_incident
- koheripbal 6y ago
  If you go to /r/publicfreakout and sort by /rising, you will see LOTS of videos of some rioters being extremely violent. Two sides to every story. Peaceful protesters deserve respect and to be heard. Rioters and looters should be dealt with harshly by the law.
  - sbilstein 6y ago
    Do you not see the dozens of videos on that sub showing protestors being shot, shoved down, tear gassed, for nothing?
srean 6y ago
> It's a tough situation for police Pray explain what is so tough about refraining from shooting tear gas canisters right in the face of an unarmed civilian from distance of few tens of meters ?
- koheripbal 6y ago
  Probably the same tough behavior that's preventing rioters from burning down poor immigrant small businesses. Human stupidity and the law of averages.
  - komali2 6y ago
    It would be as easy for the cops as staying home, because that's literally all they have to do to prevent violence in the streets. https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proactive-policing-crime-20170925-story.html https://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-proacti...

mavsman 6y ago

Is there a specific point at which police are or are not allowed to pepper spray people? Use tasers? Use other hopefully non-lethal force like this? These videos are really sad and I wonder when these actions are actually acceptable.

loopz 6y ago
Such scenes can happen in any country, but when the enemy is the people it just festers and escalates. With great leaders they could deescalate, but Republicans are doubling down all the way now..
dredmorbius 6y ago
Rules of engagement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_engagement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_engagement https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ending-excessive-police-force-starts-with-new-rules-of-engagement/2014/12/25/7fa379c0-8a1e-11e4-a085-34e9b9f09a58_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ending-excessive-pol... https://www.citylab.com/equity/2014/11/how-police-rules-of-engagement-differ-around-the-world/383188/ https://www.citylab.com/equity/2014/11/how-police-rules-of-e...

verdverm 6y ago

I forgot about that, and how pissed it made me. Also forgot how people revenge killed good, innocent cops https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-brooklyn-sources-article-1.2051941 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-bro...

verdverm 6y ago
Do those of you downvoting me, do you think it's because I think those officers are innocent or something? They are guilty. I also think there are many people using this tragedy as an excuse to commit crime and somehow justify their behavior via a bifurcation of their world view. Are you applying your beliefs about a group (the police in this case) at an individual level or in one broad stroke? Is not the definition of bias / prejudice (racism as a subset?) essentially applying beliefs at the group level rather than the individual level?
- komali2 6y ago
  > excuse to commit crime When cops break the law, and that's what they're doing here, they destroy faith in the justice system, in rule of law. What's crime? Is looting a Target, crime? Sure, according to tons of various laws in the USA, it is. Think about it another way though - there's a pile of food, more food than anybody could possibly eat before it spoils. In fact, lots of it does get thrown away, because it spoils. You're hungry, you walk up, take some, eat it, and leave. Did you just do something unethical? You take a TV, a pure form of entertainment and nothing more. Did you just do something Bad? Hm. Maybe, if I followed a very very long chain of events, I could say that the taking of the TV meant a CEO got to buy 1/100th less TVs for himself, sure, that's kinda bad I guess. Is it... worst than someone with a state-sponsored monopoly on violence doing, well, any of the following? : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373619 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23373619 There is no "excused crime" happening here. It's people recognizing that the rule of law is broken, that those with the Most Might are doing as they please, and telling themselves "well fuck it, I'm going to get a TV then." Expectation of the citizenry to, uh, "respect property rights" (lmfao) is absurd when we don't even expect our police to respect the rights of People to exist without violence being committed against them. So in short, who gives a fuck if target loses TVs - until we solve police brutality to the point that every cop is held criminally accountable for unethical violence, I say let it all burn, because the harm done by a looted target is immeasurably less than even a single instance of police brutality.

verdverm 6y ago

Are there videos where protesters are beyond acceptable behavior? Rioters? I doubt this is a one way street by any measure. https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-brooklyn-sources-article-1.2051941 https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/cops-shot-bro... There was some pretty awful things happening on the live streams last night. I'm surprised by how many people streamed themselves committing crimes. Are they ignorant or just dumb? The police just started taking pictures of everyone

verdverm 6y ago
I guess you get down voted for not blindly becoming outraged at only one side. I'm just not about getting myself that emotional ever.
- testbot123 6y ago
  I think you're being downvoted because you're in a thread about police brutality and are attempting to frame this as the fault of the people being brutalized.
  - verdverm 6y ago
    I think anyone who wrongs another is ...wrong Is there something wrong with that? (where is the average moral compass of society today? how far am I from that?) Is asking about how people can condemn one version of malevolence and condon another wrong? (just noticed how close malevolence is to "male violence") Are we past the point of trying to hold each other to higher standards? (is that what the protests are about?) What percentage of the protesters / rioters would not be there if they had jobs to go to? (is this more accentuated because the covid shelter in place is ending?)
    - jvdizzle 6y ago
      Literally no one is condoning assassination of police officers on- or off-duty. No one is condoning rioting or looting. But we are adult enough to understand that rioting and looting are the result of civil unrest when the people do not feel heard.

bsd44 6y ago

United States is a police state. I said it 20 years ago, people laughed. Now you see if for yourself. American police have positioned themselves as the enemy of the people because they see people as their enemy. And the only way to stop the enemy is by applying brute force. If they're doing all this in front of cameras, imagine what they do when nobody is looking. Whereas in other countries, such as the UK, police are considered civilians in a uniform and behave accordingly.

_xerces_ 6y ago
How did this come about, is it the consequence of an armed society, or something else unique to Americans?
- bobbylarrybobby 6y ago
  Militarization of the police following 9/11.
  - pluc 6y ago
    I think it's more militarization of the police because of easy access to guns (so logically police has to have bigger better gear) and erosion of rights following 9/11 (and the gradual complacency/acceptance of it). Mix in a long history or racism, easy access to information - stir and wait for it to explode.
  - ttfkam 6y ago
    People of color throughout this nation's history would disagree that it only began in 2001. It's well documented that modern policing in the US began in the model of slave patrols. And it shows.
  - corny 6y ago
    Or in 1980, Norco California, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norco_shootout#Legacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norco_shootout#Legacy The police were outgunned by a group of bank robbers.
- 6y ago

terakilobyte 6y ago

As a veteran this hits me particularly hard. This kind of force goes beyond most uses of force I personally used in Afghanistan and Iraq, actual fighting being the exception. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’d be brought up on charges if we treated nonviolent people the way these videos portray.

awillen 6y ago
It's unbelievable - you'd absolutely be brought up on charges if you used tear gas, which is clearly prohibited during war. Hundreds of tear gas canisters got fired off at US citizens by police last night, though. Insane.
- mixmastamyk 6y ago
  Sounds like a good way to get looters to disperse without further violence. What am I missing?
  - testbot123 6y ago
    > “Tear gas is considered a riot control agent because the effects dissipate a short time after exposure,’’ said Kelsey Davenport, director for nonproliferation policy at the Arms Control Association. “But even though the effects of tear gas wear off, its symptoms are harsh and terrifying, including severe eye irritations and difficulty breathing. > “The United States may justify firing tear gas [...] as legal, but the decision to use an indiscriminate, psychologically terrifying toxic chemical was excessive and certainly immoral." https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/11/27/tear-gas-forbidden-war-but-legal-use-civilians-and-migrants/2133144002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/11/27/tear-gas-forb...
    - Balgair 6y ago
      The acoup blog has an amazingly detailed post on chemical weapons and the reasons behind their disuse today: https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-chemical-weapons-anymore/ https://acoup.blog/2020/03/20/collections-why-dont-we-use-ch... TLDR: They hit you just as hard as they hit the enemy and they are wildly unpredictable.

ohiovr 6y ago

Don't come to my town to burn it down or the law will burn you down.

eezurr 6y ago

There's two sides to every story. And every business/organization has bad apples. Achieving perfection becomes order of magnitudes more expensive the closer you are to achieving it, so some level of acceptance that factors economic cost must be reached. The police are humans too. Knowing people are throwing Molotov Cocktails and bricks at police cars, I wouldn't sit still in my car if people, I mean, a mob (mentality) surrounded it. Self preservation. My theory on why the police need to use some level of brutality is because a mob mentality is an animal. It's an amorphous mammalian manifestation that is afraid of loud noises, pain, and losing it's ability to breath easily. So they use counterpart tools to control it, because when this animal cant be controlled, the whole city could be be razed in flames. (As an example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#Destruction_of_Koreatown https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#Destruc... ) Im not excusing shitty behavior, but it's worth considering there are millions of events going on in these protests, and all the excess force ones fit in a bullet list on my monitor. Also, in many of the listed events, the cops told people to move away or go back inside repeatedly before taking action. From their perspective, keeping battle formation is necessary to success. And lawfully, you are supposed to comply with this demand. Just things to consider. I hope I'm not gut-reaction-down voted for taking the middle ground.

_bxg1 6y ago
The problem is that, by your definition, the police are turning into an animal too. They're supposed to be better than that and work to lower the tension, but instead they react and escalate things. If they can't be better than that, we shouldn't be paying them and giving them guns. And we shouldn't be exempting them from prosecution for their actions.
- eezurr 6y ago
  The police are too organized IMO to be acting like an animal (barring the bad apples). I also don't view the police force as one identity, just like (I imagine) you don't view the protesters by the actions of the rioters. It doesn't help that the police all dress the same, so the brain lumps all of them into one identity, and people focus on the bad actions of the few. They are in an incredibly difficult situation, and putting their lives at risk. I think there are plenty of cops who care about their community, but they do what they have to do because there is no efficient way to communicate to or painlessly control an emotional mob of people (plus bad actors climbing out of the woodwork to cause harm to the community). When you talk to a mob, you aren't talking to anyone.

hedora 6y ago

This abuse of power is the direct result of the militarization of our police force. I say we take away their guns. If a suspect is brandishing a firearm, they can call in a separate unit allowed to carry weapons. Also, no more riot gear. The police can’t be trusted with it. Let the national guard have it, but train them for emergency response, not hunting down crooks.

ponsin 6y ago
If you can't trust the police with guns or riot gear then what is the point of them. If all they are reduced to are official naggers then they will end up having to call the actual police (the people who are allowed to have guns and riot gear) and the actual police will end up doing what the current police do. A better solution would be to provide better training and enforcement of police behavior.
- bradlys 6y ago
  You can't trust most people with a gun. That's the problem. Guns also bring tension to most situations. How often do you visit people with a pistol attached to your hip? Do they all go, "Oh, yeah, feel even safer now that you're here." Probably not - they're worried you're going to do something stupid and shoot them. No one I know feels safer with armed police around and tensions frequently escalate with them around. We all go, "this man has a gun and could kill us - he will do it too because he knows he will get away clean and free." Training isn't sufficient. If there are real consequences for police and it shows that they face the same consequences the rest of us do for many years - maybe then. But that day will not be for 10+ years. For now, it's much easier to say and act on taking away their weapons that are meant to kill people.
  - ponsin 6y ago
    In fact I do feel safer when the security guard in front of my kid's school is armed. That security guard has been trained and will suffer big consequences if he uses the gun improperly. I guess that if you feel unsafe around armed security guards I can't argue with your feelings

xupybd 6y ago

The protests might lead to real change and save lives. The riots will get people killed and are destroying businesses. Events like this are as bad as the original event https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/22-arrested-60-looters-detained-in-Oakland-15305244.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/22-arrested-60-l... If this has deteriorated to an eye for an eye I'm not sure where it will end. I hope things get better before there is more loss of life.