7 ms·

Many organizers of protests in Furguson, peaceful or otherwise, have since been found murdered in ways that suggest they were literally hunted down and killed f

by adge 6y ago

Many organizers of protests in Furguson, peaceful or otherwise, have since been found murdered in ways that suggest they were literally hunted down and killed for their involvement. Multiple have been found shot through the head in burned out cars to destroy all evidence. If they broke the law it still does not merit being executed in the street. (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/puzzling-number-men-tied-ferguson-protests-have-died-n984261 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/puzzling-number-men-tie...) In a situation where police feel justified to kill extra-judicially over a possibly fake 20 dollar bill, what hope do we have that protesters won't be targeted in unfair ways? Or worse, that organizers won't be hunted down like animals and murdered like in Furguson? It would be unethical to not do everything in your power to protect those in this position. secondly how do you plan to identify violent vs non-violent protesters from a static image? How would you find their identity afterwards? There is overwhelming evidence to suggest these methods are at best ineffective and at worst racist, and in either case will lead to innocent people being charged. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2109887-police-mass-face-recognition-in-the-us-will-net-innocent-people/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2109887-police-mass-fac...

voisin 6y ago
This is shocking and should absolutely be more widely reported as it may change behaviour of present day activists. We need an anonymizing solution for protest organizing.
- wongarsu 6y ago
  >it may change behaviour of present day activists that's exactly what the murderers want to achieve
  - voisin 6y ago
    Behaviour change may be more / better masks, etc. I am shocked by the number of people clearly committing crimes without masks.
briefcomment 6y ago
When I hear your first point, I consider the possibility that these are not retaliatory murders, but rather ways to keep something secret. If there was an agenda behind these riots organized at a higher level than these leaders, similar to what is being suggested by some during these current protests, and those higher level organizers wanted to keep the agenda or those who set it hidden, it could explain why lower level leaders are being picked off. Edit: For those downvoting, is there a problem with considering this possibility? I think it's incredibly unlikely, but ignoring black swans can one day come back to bite you. Ideally, everyone should be aware of the theories out there, however ludicrous, on the off chance that they are correct and require critical and swift action.
- therealcamino 6y ago
  Pure speculation can sound rational and thorough, but most often it leads towards the ideas that seem most dramatic and exciting, and that conform to your own preconceptions and prejudices.
  - briefcomment 6y ago
    I think that's right, but I don't think that speculation doesn't have its uses. The truth is probably somewhere between the speculative extremes, and asking questions about the extremes causes people to look into things, which hopefully eventually lead to the truth and a resolution, both of which are probably nowhere near the extremes.
    - therealcamino 6y ago
      Well, you asked why you were being downvoted. Stuff that you just make up can be corrosive the the public dialogue.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > When I hear your first point, I consider the possibility that these are not retaliatory murders, but rather ways to keep something secret. That contains as much conspiracy as "somebody is hunting down the protestors". There are simpler possible explanations, I believe, e.g. people who join (or organize) riots are usually not the stable boring kind that live long, predictable lives full of planning and quiet afternoons. Drugs, crime, violence and mental health issues are probably more prevalent in that group than in the general population.
Fezzik 6y ago
For those who do not click through to the article: “Police say that there is no evidence the deaths have anything to do with the protests”. From my time in Portland, working at the courthouse as a court clerk during the Occupy movement, when hundreds of transient “protesters” camped out in the park, it is not surprising that some of those folks would OD or end up dead for reasons entirely not related to protesting but instead related to their unfortunate life circumstances. I do not know if the same is true of Ferguson, but the article does not seem to provide any evidence of calculated retaliation against protesters.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- zaaakk 6y ago
  Why would the police say otherwise? Nice critical thinking.
  - jtbayly 6y ago
    Does anybody have any evidence they are connected? I’m not saying thy are or aren’t, but it’s at least worth noting what the police say.
    - tehjoker 6y ago
      It's not really. Police lie constantly, especially when it would implicate them. Their statements carry zero information except where they provide positive publicly verifiable evidence. Unsettling and sad, but its the truth.
      - jtbayly 6y ago
        So I’ll take that as a “No, there’s no evidence whatsoever that these are connected. It’s entirely baseless speculation and conspiracy theory.”
        6y ago
xienze 6y ago
Isn’t the point of civil disobedience that you know what you’re doing could have consequences? All I’m hearing is “we should let people trash entire cities and not be held accountable.”
- sukilot 6y ago
  You're saying is that people should expect and accept to be shot in the head when they commit civil disobedience? Really?
ghvfuh94 6y ago
What's more likely? That there is a grand conspiracy by shady elitists to protect the NWO by assassinating black thugs in a ghetto? Or that black thugs are shooting each other, as they tend to do, taking drugs and killing themselves? The article tries to tug on your heartstrings by pointing out that black residents live in higher crime areas than White residents: funny, that. It goes on to say that black men comprise 50 of the 65 homicide victims for the year, yet conveniently fails to note that all but 1 of the 15 known killers are black men. It's incredibly disingenuous and dangerous. It riles up the kind of conspiracy theorists who rave about White supremacists and systematic killer cops, directly and significantly contributing to the rioting we see now.
frootloops2 6y ago
Respect to NBC for reporting the African American male victims of homicide (50/65) but not the culprits (14/15). Sometimes the "other side of the story" (as White Supremacists would say) does NOT need to be heard. Not now.
- sukilot 6y ago
  I don't know what your cryptic numerology means, but victims and killers are different categories and can't be directly compared, and being victim of a homicide has a much smaller personal-choice component perpetrator.
  - frootloops2 6y ago
    Of 65 St Louis homicide victims for the year, 50 were AA males; of the 15 identified killers, 14 were AA males. I'd caution against implying that this is a choice at all. It's not as if 15 times as many are 'choosing' to murder because of the colour of their skin. That's why I'm glad this fact was omitted - it's not hard to imagine how it might be misinterpreted or exploited.
itsspring 6y ago
> How would you find their identity afterwards? Only responding to this part. I've seen enough people get dox'd on the internet from static photos that I continue to be impressed each time by the skill of volunteer/angry people on <internet forum>

by adge 6y ago

voisin 6y ago

This is shocking and should absolutely be more widely reported as it may change behaviour of present day activists. We need an anonymizing solution for protest organizing.

wongarsu 6y ago
>it may change behaviour of present day activists that's exactly what the murderers want to achieve
- voisin 6y ago
  Behaviour change may be more / better masks, etc. I am shocked by the number of people clearly committing crimes without masks.

briefcomment 6y ago

When I hear your first point, I consider the possibility that these are not retaliatory murders, but rather ways to keep something secret. If there was an agenda behind these riots organized at a higher level than these leaders, similar to what is being suggested by some during these current protests, and those higher level organizers wanted to keep the agenda or those who set it hidden, it could explain why lower level leaders are being picked off. Edit: For those downvoting, is there a problem with considering this possibility? I think it's incredibly unlikely, but ignoring black swans can one day come back to bite you. Ideally, everyone should be aware of the theories out there, however ludicrous, on the off chance that they are correct and require critical and swift action.

therealcamino 6y ago
Pure speculation can sound rational and thorough, but most often it leads towards the ideas that seem most dramatic and exciting, and that conform to your own preconceptions and prejudices.
- briefcomment 6y ago
  I think that's right, but I don't think that speculation doesn't have its uses. The truth is probably somewhere between the speculative extremes, and asking questions about the extremes causes people to look into things, which hopefully eventually lead to the truth and a resolution, both of which are probably nowhere near the extremes.
  - therealcamino 6y ago
    Well, you asked why you were being downvoted. Stuff that you just make up can be corrosive the the public dialogue.
luckylion 6y ago
> When I hear your first point, I consider the possibility that these are not retaliatory murders, but rather ways to keep something secret. That contains as much conspiracy as "somebody is hunting down the protestors". There are simpler possible explanations, I believe, e.g. people who join (or organize) riots are usually not the stable boring kind that live long, predictable lives full of planning and quiet afternoons. Drugs, crime, violence and mental health issues are probably more prevalent in that group than in the general population.

Fezzik 6y ago

For those who do not click through to the article: “Police say that there is no evidence the deaths have anything to do with the protests”. From my time in Portland, working at the courthouse as a court clerk during the Occupy movement, when hundreds of transient “protesters” camped out in the park, it is not surprising that some of those folks would OD or end up dead for reasons entirely not related to protesting but instead related to their unfortunate life circumstances. I do not know if the same is true of Ferguson, but the article does not seem to provide any evidence of calculated retaliation against protesters.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
zaaakk 6y ago
Why would the police say otherwise? Nice critical thinking.
- jtbayly 6y ago
  Does anybody have any evidence they are connected? I’m not saying thy are or aren’t, but it’s at least worth noting what the police say.
  - tehjoker 6y ago
    It's not really. Police lie constantly, especially when it would implicate them. Their statements carry zero information except where they provide positive publicly verifiable evidence. Unsettling and sad, but its the truth.
    - jtbayly 6y ago
      So I’ll take that as a “No, there’s no evidence whatsoever that these are connected. It’s entirely baseless speculation and conspiracy theory.”
      - 6y ago

xienze 6y ago

Isn’t the point of civil disobedience that you know what you’re doing could have consequences? All I’m hearing is “we should let people trash entire cities and not be held accountable.”

sukilot 6y ago
You're saying is that people should expect and accept to be shot in the head when they commit civil disobedience? Really?

ghvfuh94 6y ago

What's more likely? That there is a grand conspiracy by shady elitists to protect the NWO by assassinating black thugs in a ghetto? Or that black thugs are shooting each other, as they tend to do, taking drugs and killing themselves? The article tries to tug on your heartstrings by pointing out that black residents live in higher crime areas than White residents: funny, that. It goes on to say that black men comprise 50 of the 65 homicide victims for the year, yet conveniently fails to note that all but 1 of the 15 known killers are black men. It's incredibly disingenuous and dangerous. It riles up the kind of conspiracy theorists who rave about White supremacists and systematic killer cops, directly and significantly contributing to the rioting we see now.

frootloops2 6y ago

Respect to NBC for reporting the African American male victims of homicide (50/65) but not the culprits (14/15). Sometimes the "other side of the story" (as White Supremacists would say) does NOT need to be heard. Not now.

sukilot 6y ago
I don't know what your cryptic numerology means, but victims and killers are different categories and can't be directly compared, and being victim of a homicide has a much smaller personal-choice component perpetrator.
- frootloops2 6y ago
  Of 65 St Louis homicide victims for the year, 50 were AA males; of the 15 identified killers, 14 were AA males. I'd caution against implying that this is a choice at all. It's not as if 15 times as many are 'choosing' to murder because of the colour of their skin. That's why I'm glad this fact was omitted - it's not hard to imagine how it might be misinterpreted or exploited.

itsspring 6y ago

> How would you find their identity afterwards? Only responding to this part. I've seen enough people get dox'd on the internet from static photos that I continue to be impressed each time by the skill of volunteer/angry people on <internet forum>