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> - "Nvidia open-source driver nouveau.." - why include it if not to bloat the list? Because the proprietary Linux driver doesn't support Wayland. So you have

> - "Nvidia open-source driver nouveau.." - why include it if not to bloat the list? Because the proprietary Linux driver doesn't support Wayland. So you have to either choose to use the proprietary driver that only supports Xorg (with all the limitations, for example if you have multiple monitors with different DPI there is no way to scale them correctly) or use the open source nouveau driver with the problems associated with it. To make the nouveau driver even not crash my PC after 10 minutes I had to download a firmware file from a bug report on the internet, simple isn't it. And still is barely usable, I mean watch a 60p video on YouTube and it lags. > Bollox. Gnome/Mate Display-Manager does an excellent job. If you're still using X11 manual configs than what do you expect.. If you have monitors with different DPI there is no way to make them work correctly on X11. This is a problem about how X is designed, in an era where you didn't have HiDPI screens. Also if you have a laptop and you have to connect to a projector you don't want to spend 20 minutes thinkering around with the Xorg config while the other people at the meating with their Macbooks laught at you.

viraptor 6y ago
What's the issue with the projector? I plug mine in and... it appears. (Scaling issues aside)
- interactivecode 6y ago
  this is about scaling issues :facepalm:
  - viraptor 6y ago
    Ok, so what's the issue? It's a bit inconvenient when your laptop screen changes dpi on connection, but in the projector scenario you're not working between those two screens. One is full screen presentation / video which gets scaled anyway and the other has... full screen speaker notes? I get why is a serious problem in a laptop and monitor side-by-side setup, but here?
- alerighi 6y ago
  Eh, you have a 4K laptop, you connect the projector and everything is huge.
AsyncAwait 6y ago
> Because the proprietary Linux driver doesn't support Wayland. Sure, so don't get NVIDIA hardware for Linux. People don't seem to compile long lists about how the Mac doesn't really have an NVIDIA option, it's considered that your hardware is restricted in that way on the Mac and so you're going into it knowing that. Well, Linux is the same way, just exclude NVIDIA from your list unless you're on a desktop, fine running X and fine with their proprietary driver. This is not something we can reasonably fix without NVIDIA's direct involvement, so I see no point of including it. It's like complaining the Raspberry Pi can't run your favorite x86 programs.
- atemerev 6y ago
  It is possible to run NVIDIA cards on Mac Pro (or with eGPU hardware). There is no alternative to NVIDIA for many software engineers working with HPC and/or simulations / deep learning tasks; many applications and libraries require CUDA, and there is no alternative for CUDA (OpenCL and ROCm are much lower-level). I personally use Linux with NVIDIA cards, it works reasonably well, and some desktop environments now even work with Wayland (as of 2020).
  - swiley 6y ago
    Regardless this is an NVIDIA problem and not a Linux one.
  - jcelerier 6y ago
    > It is possible to run NVIDIA cards on Mac Pro (or with eGPU hardware). only very select cards. I used to have a GTX 690 and could absolutely never get a hackintosh to get hardware acceleration through it.
  - vetinari 6y ago
    > some desktop environments now even work with Wayland (as of 2020). Wayland compositors themselves work. What is a problem is sharing GPU resources between different applications using different APIs. I.e., you have your compositor using OpenGL and your application using Vulkan. The application renders itself into a buffer and sends it to the compositor, to render the desktop. If the compositor and application cannot share buffers, the application has to read it from GPU, put into system RAM and share with compositor via SHM. The compositor then writes it back to VRAM. (Obviously, when application renders itself via software-only, this is not an issue.) When the compositor and application can share buffer, the application just send the buffer handle to compositor, done. This sharing on Linux is done via dma-buf. AMD and Intel drivers use dma-buf, so it is not a problem. Nvidia proprietary driver doesn't, it uses it's own EGLStreams, so it is incompatible with compositors. It is similar, as if Nvidia drivers for Windows started ignoring WDDM and started doing their own thing, complete with their own display server. It would also become incompatible with the rest of system. For some reason, Nvidia thinks it is fine to do that in Linux something, that they would not dare to do in Windows.
vetinari 6y ago
> So you have to either choose to use the proprietary driver that only supports Xorg ... or use the open source nouveau driver with the problems associated with it. You have also a third option: not use Nvidia hardware at all. In the end, it's you who is voting with your money; you gave Nvidia your money, so the attitude you are getting from Nvidia is between you two. > there is no way to make them work correctly on X11. Technically, there is, but it is user unfriendy (set framebuffer sizes of all displays to largest dpi and downsample on scan-out, via xrandr) and non-systematic hack. > This is a problem about how X is designed, in an era where you didn't have HiDPI screens. That's why you should switch to Wayland. X11 is dead, in next years it will be just a few libraries so legacy applications have something to link with. > Also if you have a laptop and you have to connect to a projector you don't want to spend 20 minutes thinkering around with the Xorg config while the other people at the meating with their Macbooks laught at you. Newer had that problem. In fact, I didn't edit xorg config since early 2000s, I think it didn't exist on any of my machines for decade+ already.
cycomanic 6y ago
> > - "Nvidia open-source driver nouveau.." - why include it if not to bloat the list? > Because the proprietary Linux driver doesn't support Wayland. Do you have a source for that. All the sources I've seen say it works, if you set nvidia-drm.modeset=1 > > Bollox. Gnome/Mate Display-Manager does an excellent job. If you're still using X11 manual configs than what do you expect.. > If you have monitors with different DPI there is no way to make them work correctly on X11. This is a problem about how X is designed, in an era where you didn't have HiDPI screens. Also if you have a laptop and you have to connect to a projector you don't want to spend 20 minutes thinkering around with the Xorg config while the other people at the meating with their Macbooks laught at you. I'm not sure what you're doing i guess you're just repeating something you read 15 years ago. I haven't had to edit an xorg file in at least that long and I'm using Linux as my daily driver. Plugging in a projector also works (both wayland and xorg), what was causing problems were the scaling of some programs if you dragged from a hidpi to the projector, but then just restarting the app would also fix this (and this has been fixed for quite a while). As a side note I've seen lots of issues from mac users, funnily if that happens mac users almost always blame it on the projector, it's never the fault of the mac.

viraptor 6y ago

What's the issue with the projector? I plug mine in and... it appears. (Scaling issues aside)

interactivecode 6y ago
this is about scaling issues :facepalm:
- viraptor 6y ago
  Ok, so what's the issue? It's a bit inconvenient when your laptop screen changes dpi on connection, but in the projector scenario you're not working between those two screens. One is full screen presentation / video which gets scaled anyway and the other has... full screen speaker notes? I get why is a serious problem in a laptop and monitor side-by-side setup, but here?
alerighi 6y ago
Eh, you have a 4K laptop, you connect the projector and everything is huge.

AsyncAwait 6y ago

> Because the proprietary Linux driver doesn't support Wayland. Sure, so don't get NVIDIA hardware for Linux. People don't seem to compile long lists about how the Mac doesn't really have an NVIDIA option, it's considered that your hardware is restricted in that way on the Mac and so you're going into it knowing that. Well, Linux is the same way, just exclude NVIDIA from your list unless you're on a desktop, fine running X and fine with their proprietary driver. This is not something we can reasonably fix without NVIDIA's direct involvement, so I see no point of including it. It's like complaining the Raspberry Pi can't run your favorite x86 programs.

atemerev 6y ago
It is possible to run NVIDIA cards on Mac Pro (or with eGPU hardware). There is no alternative to NVIDIA for many software engineers working with HPC and/or simulations / deep learning tasks; many applications and libraries require CUDA, and there is no alternative for CUDA (OpenCL and ROCm are much lower-level). I personally use Linux with NVIDIA cards, it works reasonably well, and some desktop environments now even work with Wayland (as of 2020).
- swiley 6y ago
  Regardless this is an NVIDIA problem and not a Linux one.
- jcelerier 6y ago
  > It is possible to run NVIDIA cards on Mac Pro (or with eGPU hardware). only very select cards. I used to have a GTX 690 and could absolutely never get a hackintosh to get hardware acceleration through it.
- vetinari 6y ago
  > some desktop environments now even work with Wayland (as of 2020). Wayland compositors themselves work. What is a problem is sharing GPU resources between different applications using different APIs. I.e., you have your compositor using OpenGL and your application using Vulkan. The application renders itself into a buffer and sends it to the compositor, to render the desktop. If the compositor and application cannot share buffers, the application has to read it from GPU, put into system RAM and share with compositor via SHM. The compositor then writes it back to VRAM. (Obviously, when application renders itself via software-only, this is not an issue.) When the compositor and application can share buffer, the application just send the buffer handle to compositor, done. This sharing on Linux is done via dma-buf. AMD and Intel drivers use dma-buf, so it is not a problem. Nvidia proprietary driver doesn't, it uses it's own EGLStreams, so it is incompatible with compositors. It is similar, as if Nvidia drivers for Windows started ignoring WDDM and started doing their own thing, complete with their own display server. It would also become incompatible with the rest of system. For some reason, Nvidia thinks it is fine to do that in Linux something, that they would not dare to do in Windows.

vetinari 6y ago

> So you have to either choose to use the proprietary driver that only supports Xorg ... or use the open source nouveau driver with the problems associated with it. You have also a third option: not use Nvidia hardware at all. In the end, it's you who is voting with your money; you gave Nvidia your money, so the attitude you are getting from Nvidia is between you two. > there is no way to make them work correctly on X11. Technically, there is, but it is user unfriendy (set framebuffer sizes of all displays to largest dpi and downsample on scan-out, via xrandr) and non-systematic hack. > This is a problem about how X is designed, in an era where you didn't have HiDPI screens. That's why you should switch to Wayland. X11 is dead, in next years it will be just a few libraries so legacy applications have something to link with. > Also if you have a laptop and you have to connect to a projector you don't want to spend 20 minutes thinkering around with the Xorg config while the other people at the meating with their Macbooks laught at you. Newer had that problem. In fact, I didn't edit xorg config since early 2000s, I think it didn't exist on any of my machines for decade+ already.

cycomanic 6y ago

> > - "Nvidia open-source driver nouveau.." - why include it if not to bloat the list? > Because the proprietary Linux driver doesn't support Wayland. Do you have a source for that. All the sources I've seen say it works, if you set nvidia-drm.modeset=1 > > Bollox. Gnome/Mate Display-Manager does an excellent job. If you're still using X11 manual configs than what do you expect.. > If you have monitors with different DPI there is no way to make them work correctly on X11. This is a problem about how X is designed, in an era where you didn't have HiDPI screens. Also if you have a laptop and you have to connect to a projector you don't want to spend 20 minutes thinkering around with the Xorg config while the other people at the meating with their Macbooks laught at you. I'm not sure what you're doing i guess you're just repeating something you read 15 years ago. I haven't had to edit an xorg file in at least that long and I'm using Linux as my daily driver. Plugging in a projector also works (both wayland and xorg), what was causing problems were the scaling of some programs if you dragged from a hidpi to the projector, but then just restarting the app would also fix this (and this has been fixed for quite a while). As a side note I've seen lots of issues from mac users, funnily if that happens mac users almost always blame it on the projector, it's never the fault of the mac.