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This list exaggerates many issues in an attempt to inflate the list. It's totally bloated, full of baseless personal opinions. A few examples: - "Nvidia open

This list exaggerates many issues in an attempt to inflate the list. It's totally bloated, full of baseless personal opinions. A few examples: - "Nvidia open-source driver nouveau.." - why include it if not to bloat the list? - "Under Linux, setting multi-monitor configurations especially using multiple GPUs running binary NVIDIA drivers can be a major PITA" - Bollox. Gnome/Mate Display-Manager does an excellent job. If you're still using X11 manual configs than what do you expect.. - "Linux drivers are usually much worse (they require a lot of tinkering..)" - Broad statements are usually wrong. Especially this one based on an opinion from the 90's. - "Resume after suspend in Linux is unstable and oftentimes doesn't work." - Bollox. Resume from Hybernate - maybe. But suspend works perfectly most of the time. - "X.org is largely outdated" - duh... the whole list on this topic is dated issues resolved by WM. - "Adding custom monitor modelines in Linux is a major PITA." - Is it? a one line command? and how do you do it on Windows? oh you can't... - "Applications development is a major PITA" - this is ridiculous.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
letientai299 6y ago
Totally agree. For all the non-Mac laptops I've used, nouveau is never a problem. And Ubuntu default setting is pretty good nowadays. I'm suprise that those point make it to a "2020 Edition" list.
- atemerev 6y ago
  Have you tried it with Pascal cards and later? It simply doesn’t work at all, with my experience.
  - letientai299 6y ago
    I don't have any experience with Pascal cards. My ones are usually the consumer laptops from Dell (Inspiron, Vostro, XPS, Precisions), Lenovo Thinkpad, HP...
    - AsyncAwait 6y ago
      Pascal works [1], later cards indeed do not work well, but this is due to NVIDIA's hostility and not something the community can easily fix. Not a Linux problem, but an NVIDIA problem. 1 - https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nouveau-pascal-3d&num=1 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nouveau-...
  - tankenmate 6y ago
    NVIDIA has taken an indifferent / hostile approach for a few decades, and only now is it changing. So, the easiest fix is to ditch NVIDIA because it doesn't play well with Linux. If you don't want to ditch NVIDIA then ditch Linux, but don't blame Linux because NVIDIA doesn't want to play ball. AMD on the other hand supports open source (not just Linux), and has made a fair amount of it's hardware documentation available (unlike NVIDIA). On my workstation with an AMD card it runs the same games about 5% quicker under Linux than it does under Windows (and other benchmarks back that up).
BiteCode_dev 6y ago
I use Linux every day. I love it. But I don't think your list reflects reality. > Bollox. Gnome/Mate Display-Manager does an excellent job. If you're still using X11 manual configs than what do you expect.. I have to go from multi-screen configuration to configuration because of my job. I happen to try a lot of combinations of connectors, dongles, screen brands/resolutions... And no, this is really, really not solved. I have problems 1 time out of 3. > "Linux drivers are usually much worse (they require a lot of tinkering..)" - Broad statements are usually wrong. Especially this one based on an opinion from the 90's. They are, here. For BT, Wifi, graphic cards and printers at least, I attest that I most of the time have less features and/or stability using Libre drivers. Does it work well enough for day to day use? Certainly. Can I use my "scan" button on my Epson laser? Absolutly not. > "Resume after suspend in Linux is unstable and oftentimes doesn't work." - Bollox. Resume from Hybernate - maybe. But suspend works perfectly most of the time. Most the time is not enough for sometime like suspend. The whole idea is that you _trust_ the computer to restore you work space the way it used to be. If you can't, if sometime it may not boot, or disable the network card (common problem), then it failed. Can you imagine if VSCode would restore your file tabs, but only, most of the time? In fact, one of the first thing I do on a fresh install is to go the the "close lid" settings, and disable suspend, because I'm afraid to lose state by mistake. > "X.org is largely outdated" - duh... the whole list on this topic is dated issues resolved by WM. X is largely outdated. That why we still have flickers when booting a linux desktop, which means you will never ever make a Mac lover use Linux because they will not trust it. Yes, appearance matters. > "Applications development is a major PITA" - this is ridiculous. If you talk about web or cli apps, yes. But desktop apps, no. It IS harder to dev a desktop app for linux, because you have to support a HUGE diversity of configurations: distros, versions, desktop managers. Want to add a system tray icon ? Well, are you targetting Gnome 2, Gnome shell or Unity? Want to make a package ? rpm, deb, snap, flatpack or appimage? Want to use QT4? Not installable from the official repos in the last Ubuntu LTS. Meanwhile, apps that worked in Windows XP often still works on Windows 10. The alternative is to limit yourself to a weak % of users from something that is already a niche. I love Linux, but being in denial doesn't help getting it in better shape. Not to mention this lists is tiny compared to the actual article.
- ubercow13 6y ago
alerighi 6y ago
> - "Nvidia open-source driver nouveau.." - why include it if not to bloat the list? Because the proprietary Linux driver doesn't support Wayland. So you have to either choose to use the proprietary driver that only supports Xorg (with all the limitations, for example if you have multiple monitors with different DPI there is no way to scale them correctly) or use the open source nouveau driver with the problems associated with it. To make the nouveau driver even not crash my PC after 10 minutes I had to download a firmware file from a bug report on the internet, simple isn't it. And still is barely usable, I mean watch a 60p video on YouTube and it lags. > Bollox. Gnome/Mate Display-Manager does an excellent job. If you're still using X11 manual configs than what do you expect.. If you have monitors with different DPI there is no way to make them work correctly on X11. This is a problem about how X is designed, in an era where you didn't have HiDPI screens. Also if you have a laptop and you have to connect to a projector you don't want to spend 20 minutes thinkering around with the Xorg config while the other people at the meating with their Macbooks laught at you.
- viraptor 6y ago
  What's the issue with the projector? I plug mine in and... it appears. (Scaling issues aside)
  - interactivecode 6y ago
    this is about scaling issues :facepalm:
    - viraptor 6y ago
      Ok, so what's the issue? It's a bit inconvenient when your laptop screen changes dpi on connection, but in the projector scenario you're not working between those two screens. One is full screen presentation / video which gets scaled anyway and the other has... full screen speaker notes? I get why is a serious problem in a laptop and monitor side-by-side setup, but here?
  - alerighi 6y ago
    Eh, you have a 4K laptop, you connect the projector and everything is huge.
swiley 6y ago
Even without gnome just use the xrandr command when you need multiple monitors. IMO they’re very straightforward. Some distros maybe generate xorg configs that don’t have include your second output port? This isn’t an issue I’ve had with the last 4 computers I’ve owned I don’t get the driver thing? IME especially with USB drivers Linux needs less tinkering than windows. Maybe they’re complaining about closed drivers or firmware? That’s the manufacture being dickish and not a Linux problem. I’ve never had the resume issue but people have the same problems on windows. Application development is easier on GNU/Linux than any other platform. I guess if you’re used to the one particular language/framework another platform supports and you move to Linux the support for that isn’t going to be as good. Developing closed source apps sucks but no one wants to run closed source apps on Linux.
dm33tri 6y ago
Most of these issues vary between distros but they are mostly valid, especially on laptops. I only had two laptops, but on both suspend doesn't work properly because of btusb driver. And to get battery life on par with Windows, you need to tinker with 1) graphics drivers (or just disable discrete gpu) 2) CPU governors (mostly works ok on Linux today but very different from windows and may confuse people) 3) touchpad. Just disable it, because moving cursor uses like 100% of a single CPU core and drains battery. No such problem with mouse.
stplsd 6y ago
> "Under Linux, setting multi-monitor configurations especially using multiple GPUs running binary NVIDIA drivers can be a major PITA" - Bollox. Not Bollox, multimonitor setup and hdpi scaling is in a sad state in Linux - "Applications development is a major PITA" - this is ridiculous. Yea, that is the major framework should I use to desktop app that will be supported in 10 years? Compared to Windows compatibility, it is a joke. I use Linux for more than 10 years, but let's not pretend that it is in the same league as Win/Mac as Desktop OS. It is great if you use it for dev work, but for general Desktop use, usability, security, compatability is trerrible.
- exiled13 6y ago
  With all the different variants of Linux and customization, I have yet to find a desktop environment that I'm actually happy with. Windows has a lot of features I like, they built on them and make them better. For Linux it usually seems there's no direction, they are all spread thin or not optimized and are slow. Even things like file explorers, since they all need to make their own, they are lacking in comparison to Windows. It is incredibly frustrating to be able to do something in Windows file explorer, and to not be able to do the same thing on Linux and instead have to open up a terminal to do something that just takes 2-3 button presses with a proper GUI.
  - ubercow13 6y ago
    Dolphin is better than Windows Explorer IMO. What can't it do? I would say Dolphin is just above Explorer in terms of the 'top' graphical file managers across operating systems
    - exiled13 6y ago
      I don't really like KDE, so of the environments I've used, they don't use Dolphin. You can install it otherwise, but it tends to be buggy. Part of it too is that when you open/save a file in Windows, it effectively gives you a file explorer. There are some apps that roll their own, but on Linux basically all of them roll their own. A lot of the times they lack features like simply being able to create a new folder when you are saving something.
fierarul 6y ago
> - "Resume after suspend in Linux is unstable and oftentimes doesn't work." - Bollox. Resume from Hybernate - maybe. But suspend works perfectly most of the time. Seems like you are agreeing. "Most of the time" means it's unstable and oftentimes it does not work! On my desktop I particularly noticed this with the latest Ubuntu. Suspend used to work in Ubuntu 18 I think but not I'm on Ubuntu 20.04 and it does not. I think it stopped working on Ubuntu 19. This confirms the lack of QA too. I didn't have the patience to go through the whole list but it seems to hit a few pain points rather well.
itvision 6y ago
> Bollox. Gnome/Mate Display-Manager does an excellent job. If you're still using X11 manual configs than what do you expect.. Have you actually ever tried to set up a PC with two NVIDIA GPUs running simultaneously and monitors connected to each of them? I believe you haven't. > "Resume after suspend in Linux is unstable and oftentimes doesn't work." - Bollox. And it's bullox because you say so? So, a sample size of one? > - "X.org is largely outdated" - duh... the whole list on this topic is dated issues resolved by WM. None of the issues listed there can even be solved by a WM. > "Adding custom monitor modelines in Linux is a major PITA." - Is it? a one line command? and how do you do it on Windows? oh you can't... In Windows there's a GUI for doing that for AMD, NVIDIA and Intel drivers. In Linux you have to create an X.org configuration file with monitor scanlines and run several non-trivial commands from console. It's not done "using one command", so you're basically lying. > "Applications development is a major PITA" - this is ridiculous. Because why?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

letientai299 6y ago

Totally agree. For all the non-Mac laptops I've used, nouveau is never a problem. And Ubuntu default setting is pretty good nowadays. I'm suprise that those point make it to a "2020 Edition" list.

atemerev 6y ago
Have you tried it with Pascal cards and later? It simply doesn’t work at all, with my experience.
- letientai299 6y ago
  I don't have any experience with Pascal cards. My ones are usually the consumer laptops from Dell (Inspiron, Vostro, XPS, Precisions), Lenovo Thinkpad, HP...
  - AsyncAwait 6y ago
    Pascal works [1], later cards indeed do not work well, but this is due to NVIDIA's hostility and not something the community can easily fix. Not a Linux problem, but an NVIDIA problem. 1 - https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nouveau-pascal-3d&num=1 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nouveau-...
- tankenmate 6y ago
  NVIDIA has taken an indifferent / hostile approach for a few decades, and only now is it changing. So, the easiest fix is to ditch NVIDIA because it doesn't play well with Linux. If you don't want to ditch NVIDIA then ditch Linux, but don't blame Linux because NVIDIA doesn't want to play ball. AMD on the other hand supports open source (not just Linux), and has made a fair amount of it's hardware documentation available (unlike NVIDIA). On my workstation with an AMD card it runs the same games about 5% quicker under Linux than it does under Windows (and other benchmarks back that up).

BiteCode_dev 6y ago

I use Linux every day. I love it. But I don't think your list reflects reality. > Bollox. Gnome/Mate Display-Manager does an excellent job. If you're still using X11 manual configs than what do you expect.. I have to go from multi-screen configuration to configuration because of my job. I happen to try a lot of combinations of connectors, dongles, screen brands/resolutions... And no, this is really, really not solved. I have problems 1 time out of 3. > "Linux drivers are usually much worse (they require a lot of tinkering..)" - Broad statements are usually wrong. Especially this one based on an opinion from the 90's. They are, here. For BT, Wifi, graphic cards and printers at least, I attest that I most of the time have less features and/or stability using Libre drivers. Does it work well enough for day to day use? Certainly. Can I use my "scan" button on my Epson laser? Absolutly not. > "Resume after suspend in Linux is unstable and oftentimes doesn't work." - Bollox. Resume from Hybernate - maybe. But suspend works perfectly most of the time. Most the time is not enough for sometime like suspend. The whole idea is that you _trust_ the computer to restore you work space the way it used to be. If you can't, if sometime it may not boot, or disable the network card (common problem), then it failed. Can you imagine if VSCode would restore your file tabs, but only, most of the time? In fact, one of the first thing I do on a fresh install is to go the the "close lid" settings, and disable suspend, because I'm afraid to lose state by mistake. > "X.org is largely outdated" - duh... the whole list on this topic is dated issues resolved by WM. X is largely outdated. That why we still have flickers when booting a linux desktop, which means you will never ever make a Mac lover use Linux because they will not trust it. Yes, appearance matters. > "Applications development is a major PITA" - this is ridiculous. If you talk about web or cli apps, yes. But desktop apps, no. It IS harder to dev a desktop app for linux, because you have to support a HUGE diversity of configurations: distros, versions, desktop managers. Want to add a system tray icon ? Well, are you targetting Gnome 2, Gnome shell or Unity? Want to make a package ? rpm, deb, snap, flatpack or appimage? Want to use QT4? Not installable from the official repos in the last Ubuntu LTS. Meanwhile, apps that worked in Windows XP often still works on Windows 10. The alternative is to limit yourself to a weak % of users from something that is already a niche. I love Linux, but being in denial doesn't help getting it in better shape. Not to mention this lists is tiny compared to the actual article.

ubercow13 6y ago

alerighi 6y ago

> - "Nvidia open-source driver nouveau.." - why include it if not to bloat the list? Because the proprietary Linux driver doesn't support Wayland. So you have to either choose to use the proprietary driver that only supports Xorg (with all the limitations, for example if you have multiple monitors with different DPI there is no way to scale them correctly) or use the open source nouveau driver with the problems associated with it. To make the nouveau driver even not crash my PC after 10 minutes I had to download a firmware file from a bug report on the internet, simple isn't it. And still is barely usable, I mean watch a 60p video on YouTube and it lags. > Bollox. Gnome/Mate Display-Manager does an excellent job. If you're still using X11 manual configs than what do you expect.. If you have monitors with different DPI there is no way to make them work correctly on X11. This is a problem about how X is designed, in an era where you didn't have HiDPI screens. Also if you have a laptop and you have to connect to a projector you don't want to spend 20 minutes thinkering around with the Xorg config while the other people at the meating with their Macbooks laught at you.

viraptor 6y ago
What's the issue with the projector? I plug mine in and... it appears. (Scaling issues aside)
- interactivecode 6y ago
  this is about scaling issues :facepalm:
  - viraptor 6y ago
    Ok, so what's the issue? It's a bit inconvenient when your laptop screen changes dpi on connection, but in the projector scenario you're not working between those two screens. One is full screen presentation / video which gets scaled anyway and the other has... full screen speaker notes? I get why is a serious problem in a laptop and monitor side-by-side setup, but here?
- alerighi 6y ago
  Eh, you have a 4K laptop, you connect the projector and everything is huge.

swiley 6y ago

Even without gnome just use the xrandr command when you need multiple monitors. IMO they’re very straightforward. Some distros maybe generate xorg configs that don’t have include your second output port? This isn’t an issue I’ve had with the last 4 computers I’ve owned I don’t get the driver thing? IME especially with USB drivers Linux needs less tinkering than windows. Maybe they’re complaining about closed drivers or firmware? That’s the manufacture being dickish and not a Linux problem. I’ve never had the resume issue but people have the same problems on windows. Application development is easier on GNU/Linux than any other platform. I guess if you’re used to the one particular language/framework another platform supports and you move to Linux the support for that isn’t going to be as good. Developing closed source apps sucks but no one wants to run closed source apps on Linux.

dm33tri 6y ago

Most of these issues vary between distros but they are mostly valid, especially on laptops. I only had two laptops, but on both suspend doesn't work properly because of btusb driver. And to get battery life on par with Windows, you need to tinker with 1) graphics drivers (or just disable discrete gpu) 2) CPU governors (mostly works ok on Linux today but very different from windows and may confuse people) 3) touchpad. Just disable it, because moving cursor uses like 100% of a single CPU core and drains battery. No such problem with mouse.

stplsd 6y ago

> "Under Linux, setting multi-monitor configurations especially using multiple GPUs running binary NVIDIA drivers can be a major PITA" - Bollox. Not Bollox, multimonitor setup and hdpi scaling is in a sad state in Linux - "Applications development is a major PITA" - this is ridiculous. Yea, that is the major framework should I use to desktop app that will be supported in 10 years? Compared to Windows compatibility, it is a joke. I use Linux for more than 10 years, but let's not pretend that it is in the same league as Win/Mac as Desktop OS. It is great if you use it for dev work, but for general Desktop use, usability, security, compatability is trerrible.

exiled13 6y ago
With all the different variants of Linux and customization, I have yet to find a desktop environment that I'm actually happy with. Windows has a lot of features I like, they built on them and make them better. For Linux it usually seems there's no direction, they are all spread thin or not optimized and are slow. Even things like file explorers, since they all need to make their own, they are lacking in comparison to Windows. It is incredibly frustrating to be able to do something in Windows file explorer, and to not be able to do the same thing on Linux and instead have to open up a terminal to do something that just takes 2-3 button presses with a proper GUI.
- ubercow13 6y ago
  Dolphin is better than Windows Explorer IMO. What can't it do? I would say Dolphin is just above Explorer in terms of the 'top' graphical file managers across operating systems
  - exiled13 6y ago
    I don't really like KDE, so of the environments I've used, they don't use Dolphin. You can install it otherwise, but it tends to be buggy. Part of it too is that when you open/save a file in Windows, it effectively gives you a file explorer. There are some apps that roll their own, but on Linux basically all of them roll their own. A lot of the times they lack features like simply being able to create a new folder when you are saving something.

fierarul 6y ago

> - "Resume after suspend in Linux is unstable and oftentimes doesn't work." - Bollox. Resume from Hybernate - maybe. But suspend works perfectly most of the time. Seems like you are agreeing. "Most of the time" means it's unstable and oftentimes it does not work! On my desktop I particularly noticed this with the latest Ubuntu. Suspend used to work in Ubuntu 18 I think but not I'm on Ubuntu 20.04 and it does not. I think it stopped working on Ubuntu 19. This confirms the lack of QA too. I didn't have the patience to go through the whole list but it seems to hit a few pain points rather well.

itvision 6y ago

> Bollox. Gnome/Mate Display-Manager does an excellent job. If you're still using X11 manual configs than what do you expect.. Have you actually ever tried to set up a PC with two NVIDIA GPUs running simultaneously and monitors connected to each of them? I believe you haven't. > "Resume after suspend in Linux is unstable and oftentimes doesn't work." - Bollox. And it's bullox because you say so? So, a sample size of one? > - "X.org is largely outdated" - duh... the whole list on this topic is dated issues resolved by WM. None of the issues listed there can even be solved by a WM. > "Adding custom monitor modelines in Linux is a major PITA." - Is it? a one line command? and how do you do it on Windows? oh you can't... In Windows there's a GUI for doing that for AMD, NVIDIA and Intel drivers. In Linux you have to create an X.org configuration file with monitor scanlines and run several non-trivial commands from console. It's not done "using one command", so you're basically lying. > "Applications development is a major PITA" - this is ridiculous. Because why?