6 ms·

I don't want to be harsh, but I really hope you aren't really like that. This is really arrogant and you would hardly gain anything by acting like that. It seem

by d0m 16y ago

I don't want to be harsh, but I really hope you aren't really like that. This is really arrogant and you would hardly gain anything by acting like that. It seems like you are trying to demolish him by proving you are right instead of helping the team growing to a better solution. Manager: A web app is impossible. You: Yeah, I agree that it would be really hard to build, but it would give us great advantages. Manager: Maybe, but we can't trust data entered by regular people. You: Yes, this is a pain to deal with. Fortunately, from my past experience, I learned good ways to cope with that. At the end, everyone agreed that it was well worth the trouble. Anyway, I don't want to annoy you more with that, I know you are really busy. Let me find the project I worked on and let's talk about it later on. So basically, here's your way: Manager: "I'm the manager and I know what to do" You: "Fuck you, I'm the coder and I know WAY MORE THAN YOU" Manager: (Don't like being contradicted by an employee.. even less being told fuck you): "I am right, here's why" You: "Fuck you, I'm the coder and I know WAY MORE THAN YOU" Manager: (Don't like being contradicted by an employee.. even less being told fuck you): "I am right, here's why" [..] You: "Fuck you, I'm the coder and I know WAY MORE THAN YOU" Manager: "No, you fuck you. I'm the manager and you won't win" Here's my way: Manager: "I'm the manager and I know what to do" Me: I know you are the manager and you choose what to do, but as a programmer (and from my experience), I could help you take the best decision. Manager: But I'm still the manager and I WILL CHOOSE WHAT TO DO, not you. Me: Yes, totally. I'll get some facts about xyz and get back to you, so you can choose the best thing for the team.

charlief 16y ago
I don't think it is fair to frame it so dramatically. I think you're arguing for strong diplomacy in negotiation, which I completely agree with. You could presume the original dialogue was not indicative of absolutely perfect diplomatic practices, but to say he is extremely arrogant... I would say he is justifiably confident if he has encountered relevant situations many times before and an adequate technical skill set. Either way, to pass any judgement, we're making way too many assumptions. And ultimately, isn't this irrelevant? They are just a few general, entertaining anecdotes. I hope you don't take Dilbert or The Office seriously as well.
- Semiapies 16y ago
  There's only negligible value in yet more anecdotes framed to reinforce the "coders awesome, managers stupid" stereotype.
bostonpete 16y ago
"Yes, totally. I'll get some facts about xyz and get back to you, so you can choose the best thing for the team." The manager comeback to that is: Manager: Fine, but let's put the fact-finding on the back burner as it's not a high priority right now.
- d0m 16y ago
  depending of the facts (read money) that you make them save ;)
PakG1 16y ago
In my experience, good managers would never take things that way. I read edw's post again just to be sure I didn't miss something. But none of his comments are malevolent, nor are they rebellious. They're calm, rational, and probing. So correspondingly in my experience, only poor quality and insecure managers would get the same impression as you. High quality managers would value the feedback and expertise from their technical folk, and never take direct comments, questions, or contradictory points as insubordination. It's the first lesson I learned in management anyway. You hire people who are smarter than you, and you correspondingly depend on them for the questions you hired them to answer. Direct to-the-point conversations aren't conflictive, they're productive. I can't tell you how many times, I've told people, "OK, just tell me the point." Likewise, I can't tell you how many times people have told me, "OK, just tell me the point." People don't like wasting time with unnecessary chit chat when they can get things done, and if there's professionalism and respect in the group, there's no chance such a direct contradictory statement could ever be perceived as an FU.
- billswift 16y ago
  Most people do prefer wasting time. It is the few that actually get things done that don't. If you think productive people are the majority, you have been really lucky in the places you have worked.
  - PakG1 16y ago
    Or you've been really unlucky....
jodrellblank 16y ago
Manager: I pay you to know about this stuff. Also, it's impossible. You: No it isn't Manager: (Likes wasting his money paying people then not listening to them): I am right. You: No you aren't. Manager: (More interested in asserting schoolyard social dominance than running a business) I'm not listening la la la You: *sigh* But.... Manager: I'm the manager and you wont win. You: When we as a company do the impossible, we all win. We can do it. Manager: I don't care. I'd rather we all lose than you win. You: *sigh*

by d0m 16y ago

charlief 16y ago

I don't think it is fair to frame it so dramatically. I think you're arguing for strong diplomacy in negotiation, which I completely agree with. You could presume the original dialogue was not indicative of absolutely perfect diplomatic practices, but to say he is extremely arrogant... I would say he is justifiably confident if he has encountered relevant situations many times before and an adequate technical skill set. Either way, to pass any judgement, we're making way too many assumptions. And ultimately, isn't this irrelevant? They are just a few general, entertaining anecdotes. I hope you don't take Dilbert or The Office seriously as well.

Semiapies 16y ago
There's only negligible value in yet more anecdotes framed to reinforce the "coders awesome, managers stupid" stereotype.

bostonpete 16y ago

"Yes, totally. I'll get some facts about xyz and get back to you, so you can choose the best thing for the team." The manager comeback to that is: Manager: Fine, but let's put the fact-finding on the back burner as it's not a high priority right now.

d0m 16y ago
depending of the facts (read money) that you make them save ;)

PakG1 16y ago

In my experience, good managers would never take things that way. I read edw's post again just to be sure I didn't miss something. But none of his comments are malevolent, nor are they rebellious. They're calm, rational, and probing. So correspondingly in my experience, only poor quality and insecure managers would get the same impression as you. High quality managers would value the feedback and expertise from their technical folk, and never take direct comments, questions, or contradictory points as insubordination. It's the first lesson I learned in management anyway. You hire people who are smarter than you, and you correspondingly depend on them for the questions you hired them to answer. Direct to-the-point conversations aren't conflictive, they're productive. I can't tell you how many times, I've told people, "OK, just tell me the point." Likewise, I can't tell you how many times people have told me, "OK, just tell me the point." People don't like wasting time with unnecessary chit chat when they can get things done, and if there's professionalism and respect in the group, there's no chance such a direct contradictory statement could ever be perceived as an FU.

billswift 16y ago
Most people do prefer wasting time. It is the few that actually get things done that don't. If you think productive people are the majority, you have been really lucky in the places you have worked.
- PakG1 16y ago
  Or you've been really unlucky....

jodrellblank 16y ago

Manager: I pay you to know about this stuff. Also, it's impossible. You: No it isn't Manager: (Likes wasting his money paying people then not listening to them): I am right. You: No you aren't. Manager: (More interested in asserting schoolyard social dominance than running a business) I'm not listening la la la You: *sigh* But.... Manager: I'm the manager and you wont win. You: When we as a company do the impossible, we all win. We can do it. Manager: I don't care. I'd rather we all lose than you win. You: *sigh*