4 ms·

> NSA spying was believed by many long before snowden, because the coincidences were piling up even though intent was not proven What were the inexpiable coinc

> NSA spying was believed by many long before snowden, because the coincidences were piling up even though intent was not proven What were the inexpiable coincidences that were piling up?

philipkglass 6y ago
I wouldn't say so much "coincidences" as "significant prior evidence." Here's what led me to believe that the NSA was engaged in large sale interception of communications years before the Snowden disclosures: "The Puzzle Palace," published in 1982: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Puzzle_Palace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Puzzle_Palace Report from the EU's investigation of ECHELON in 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Committee_on_the_ECHELON_Interception_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Committee_on_the_ECH... Disclosures around room 641A in 2006 (discussed yesterday on HN): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A The NSA's capabilities were correctly speculated upon by technically adept civil libertarians before the Snowden disclosures. The details were certainly fuzzier before 2013. But mass surveillance capabilities were no more in doubt than the existence of Israel's nuclear weapons program. In both cases there was plenty of concrete evidence despite official denial and/or stonewalling.
- JoeSmithson 6y ago
  Yes, I agree with you completely that there was significant prior evidence. I would go as far to say as a very large amount of what Snowden revealed was in fact already known. This seems to be the opposite of it being a conspiracy theory - that's why I asked specifically about these "coincidences piling up".
  - ColanR 6y ago
    You're changing the definition of "conspiracy theory" in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample you were given of NSA spying.
    - JoeSmithson 6y ago
      What's an example of a claim that you think was considered a conspiracy theory pre-Snowden, that now isn't? The existence of "NSA spying" I don't believe was ever considered a conspiracy theory.
      - ColanR 6y ago
        > What's an example of a claim that you think was considered a conspiracy theory pre-Snowden, that now isn't? "The NSA has a giant secret building in the midwest where they store surveilance." "The US government is spying on US citizens." I remember the pre-snowden discussions online and offline, and saying the US government was spying on US citizens was tinfoil hat territory. I even had conversations with government contractors who used the line, 'the government could never keep a secret that big'.

> NSA spying was believed by many long before snowden, because the coincidences were piling up even though intent was not proven What were the inexpiable coincidences that were piling up?

philipkglass 6y ago

I wouldn't say so much "coincidences" as "significant prior evidence." Here's what led me to believe that the NSA was engaged in large sale interception of communications years before the Snowden disclosures: "The Puzzle Palace," published in 1982: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Puzzle_Palace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Puzzle_Palace Report from the EU's investigation of ECHELON in 2001: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Committee_on_the_ECHELON_Interception_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Committee_on_the_ECH... Disclosures around room 641A in 2006 (discussed yesterday on HN): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Room_641A The NSA's capabilities were correctly speculated upon by technically adept civil libertarians before the Snowden disclosures. The details were certainly fuzzier before 2013. But mass surveillance capabilities were no more in doubt than the existence of Israel's nuclear weapons program. In both cases there was plenty of concrete evidence despite official denial and/or stonewalling.

JoeSmithson 6y ago
Yes, I agree with you completely that there was significant prior evidence. I would go as far to say as a very large amount of what Snowden revealed was in fact already known. This seems to be the opposite of it being a conspiracy theory - that's why I asked specifically about these "coincidences piling up".
- ColanR 6y ago
  You're changing the definition of "conspiracy theory" in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample you were given of NSA spying.
  - JoeSmithson 6y ago
    What's an example of a claim that you think was considered a conspiracy theory pre-Snowden, that now isn't? The existence of "NSA spying" I don't believe was ever considered a conspiracy theory.
    - ColanR 6y ago
      > What's an example of a claim that you think was considered a conspiracy theory pre-Snowden, that now isn't? "The NSA has a giant secret building in the midwest where they store surveilance." "The US government is spying on US citizens." I remember the pre-snowden discussions online and offline, and saying the US government was spying on US citizens was tinfoil hat territory. I even had conversations with government contractors who used the line, 'the government could never keep a secret that big'.