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With respect to availability of talent pool: my alma mater used to teach Haskell as the introductory programming language, and from what I’ve heard from people

With respect to availability of talent pool: my alma mater used to teach Haskell as the introductory programming language, and from what I’ve heard from people who were around then it was great for faculty and students. However, a very large corporate donor pressured the university to switch to Java in the early 2000s, because that’s what they used internally and they wanted a large local supply of pre-trained fungible labor. Now only a small fraction of the top students who study advanced topics in PL or compilers or what-have-you will come out of the university knowing how to use Haskell. I think this is deeply unfortunate - if society could quantum tunnel through to the point where Haskell was the safe, readily hireable corporate choice, the state of software (especially corporate software) would be a lot better off.

gowld 6y ago
I don’t get it. What does removing Haskell from the into course have to do with the use of Haskell in the PL or compilers class?
- centimeter 6y ago
  Most CS students don’t take those classes. They’ll take data structures, algorithms, game design, databases, etc. which are mostly in Java or C++.
  - zabzonk 6y ago
    Most CS students certainly do take compiler classes, at least for any decent CS course.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  If it's anything like what happened at my alma mater, they may well have switched to Java for everything. It's really a disservice to students. Developing competence in a variety of programming paradigms is a career-expanding experience. It makes picking up a new language - and, by extension, a new technology stack - a quick and easy thing to do, because there will be very few ways of doing things that you haven't seen before. Which, in turn, makes it a lot more feasible to pivot your career or act quickly when an opportunity arrives. A bunch of students who know only Java, on the other hand, is exactly what big corporate employers want. For employers, it maximizes the interchangeability of employees. For employees, it minimizes the interchangeability of employers.
  - zabzonk 6y ago
    > at my alma mater Where would that be? Why is everyone here avoiding being specific? If you are not specific, why should we believe in what you say?
    - mumblemumble 6y ago
      Because doing so would not be decorous, and there's no practical reason to do so. The most practical way someone could act on the opinion I expressed, if they find it useful, is not to sit and laboriously compile a list of individual institutions. It's to take that opinion under advisement in the course of the due diligence they should already be doing in their college search. As for the last question, if I had any fiduciary responsibility, I would advise you not to believe anything posted on an Internet message board, because the commenters are largely just a bunch of anonymous yahoos who like to troll high school juniors and seniors as a sort of perverse hobby.
    - a1369209993 6y ago
      Probably for the same reason their username is "mumblemumble" rather than "Ted Anderson from New York". This isn't Facebook; don't ask people to dox themselves. If you want people to name and shame, ask for a list of offending institutions, not individual examples. (Also, fact-check that list, rather than blindly accepting accusations made by internet randoms, but that should go without saying.)
      - zabzonk 6y ago
        I didn't ask about their real name, I asked about the college they were talking about, which hardly exposes them to doxing.
        pgcj_poster 6y ago
        The more information attached to your account, the closer it gets to revealing your true identity.
- ipnon 6y ago
  If your first program is a function, the whole world becomes a function. If your first program is an object, the whole world becomes an object. There are always 2 ways to skin a cat with a computer. The more practical computer user could be satisfied with only using their first.
zabzonk 6y ago
> from what I’ve heard No source specified - ignore. > if society could quantum tunnel Oh dear.
turndown 6y ago
Was it University of Texas at Austin? I recall an article by Dijkstra complaining of this very thing.
- jjames 6y ago
  "To the members of the Budget Council" --Dijkstra https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/OtherDocs/Haskell.html https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/OtherDocs...
ethanzh 6y ago
If your alma mater is what I'm thinking of (UT Austin) I can maybe share some insight on the current situation. The introductory courses are all still taught in Java and the lower-division systems courses are taught in C. From what I know about the curriculum it is entirely possible for a student to go their entire undergraduate career without expanding from these two languages (maybe they'll need Python for a class or two). This past semester I took our PL course which was taught in Haskell. I thought it was an interesting course and strengthened my base in FP (my high school taught CS courses in Racket where I started my foundation). However this was not a large class and from discussion with peers there is generally little interest in learning "esoteric" languages such as Haskell.
todd8 6y ago
CS programs for undergraduate majors have a real dilemma. What programming language should they teach their students. My own kids are studying CS in college so I've seen the curriculums for a number of universities, and I've spoken to the faculty responsible for the language choices at some top programs. To me, there isn't an obvious best programming language to study as an undergraduate. Some schools have a bifurcated curriculum, like Indiana University which has a program in Informatics for those planning to go into a career the requires programming and software engineering skills and a program in CS for those perhaps planning on going into grad school. There, learning Haskell might make sense in the CS program, but does it make sense for other students that want to get out and get a job? My own daughter studied at a school where her first CS class was taught in Scheme (Racket). It, to me, looked like an excellent introduction to programming for someone majoring in CS. They used a book I approved of, How to Design Programs/2ed by Felleisen, et. al. Would Haskell have been better? Maybe, but I predict that more kids would have serious problems with a language like Haskell that is burdened with more challenging concepts and ecosystem. Perhaps Lisp/Scheme is a gentler introduction to applicative programming than Haskell. However most schools start with Python or Java. I understand the arguments for a strongly typed functional programming language like Haskell (my own university research was in program verification many years ago). Early on in CS programs students usually take one or two classes on data structures and algorithms. Data structures in my opinion needs to be taught in C. Haskell, Lisp/Scheme, Python, Java, and even modern C++ are so high level that teaching data structures in these languages ends up with students not learning the proper use of these languages' standard libraries. At some point undergraduates should have an introduction to systems programming, the best text in this area is Computer Systems: A Programmer's Perspective/2ed by Randal E. Bryant and David R. O'Hallaron. This is a great book for undergraduate CS majors. This book requires C programming. So to me, it makes sense to teach data structures in C since students will need to understand it for their first exposure to systems programming. Where should Python fit in the curriculum? It's arguably the most versatile programming language. What about Javascript? When should CS majors be exposed to it. Modern Java is a big language so one semester of use isn't going to be enough and it's too important to ignore. What about C++? It takes years of working with it to become a good but not expert programmer in C++. Should it be a part of the curriculum? So my own recommendations for an undergrad CS program's language choices would be: * Python -- for intro to programming, a course on algorithms, and a machine learning course * C -- for an early class on data structures and a later class on systems programming * Java -- software engineering, and a compiler course * Lisp -- programming languages smorgasbord course, and an AI course * Assembly -- hardware architecture/digital design course * Javascript -- taught as part of a web-applications class * Haskell or OCaml (or maybe Rust) -- intro to functional programming and program verification What do HN readers think about this list? I'm glad I don't have to make the real decisions there are just too many languages that students need to learn in just a few years. As far are my own background I have spent a great deal of time pursuing three different degrees from three different universities in CS. I've been the instructor for university courses for CS majors twice and taught perhaps 40 week long classes to professional programmers within a Fortune 500 company. I've also interviewed and hired many senior developers for my own company.

gowld 6y ago

I don’t get it. What does removing Haskell from the into course have to do with the use of Haskell in the PL or compilers class?

centimeter 6y ago
Most CS students don’t take those classes. They’ll take data structures, algorithms, game design, databases, etc. which are mostly in Java or C++.
- zabzonk 6y ago
  Most CS students certainly do take compiler classes, at least for any decent CS course.
mumblemumble 6y ago
If it's anything like what happened at my alma mater, they may well have switched to Java for everything. It's really a disservice to students. Developing competence in a variety of programming paradigms is a career-expanding experience. It makes picking up a new language - and, by extension, a new technology stack - a quick and easy thing to do, because there will be very few ways of doing things that you haven't seen before. Which, in turn, makes it a lot more feasible to pivot your career or act quickly when an opportunity arrives. A bunch of students who know only Java, on the other hand, is exactly what big corporate employers want. For employers, it maximizes the interchangeability of employees. For employees, it minimizes the interchangeability of employers.
- zabzonk 6y ago
  > at my alma mater Where would that be? Why is everyone here avoiding being specific? If you are not specific, why should we believe in what you say?
  - mumblemumble 6y ago
    Because doing so would not be decorous, and there's no practical reason to do so. The most practical way someone could act on the opinion I expressed, if they find it useful, is not to sit and laboriously compile a list of individual institutions. It's to take that opinion under advisement in the course of the due diligence they should already be doing in their college search. As for the last question, if I had any fiduciary responsibility, I would advise you not to believe anything posted on an Internet message board, because the commenters are largely just a bunch of anonymous yahoos who like to troll high school juniors and seniors as a sort of perverse hobby.
  - a1369209993 6y ago
    Probably for the same reason their username is "mumblemumble" rather than "Ted Anderson from New York". This isn't Facebook; don't ask people to dox themselves. If you want people to name and shame, ask for a list of offending institutions, not individual examples. (Also, fact-check that list, rather than blindly accepting accusations made by internet randoms, but that should go without saying.)
    - zabzonk 6y ago
      I didn't ask about their real name, I asked about the college they were talking about, which hardly exposes them to doxing.
      - pgcj_poster 6y ago
        The more information attached to your account, the closer it gets to revealing your true identity.
ipnon 6y ago
If your first program is a function, the whole world becomes a function. If your first program is an object, the whole world becomes an object. There are always 2 ways to skin a cat with a computer. The more practical computer user could be satisfied with only using their first.

zabzonk 6y ago

> from what I’ve heard No source specified - ignore. > if society could quantum tunnel Oh dear.

turndown 6y ago

Was it University of Texas at Austin? I recall an article by Dijkstra complaining of this very thing.

jjames 6y ago
"To the members of the Budget Council" --Dijkstra https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/OtherDocs/Haskell.html https://www.cs.utexas.edu/users/EWD/transcriptions/OtherDocs...

ethanzh 6y ago

If your alma mater is what I'm thinking of (UT Austin) I can maybe share some insight on the current situation. The introductory courses are all still taught in Java and the lower-division systems courses are taught in C. From what I know about the curriculum it is entirely possible for a student to go their entire undergraduate career without expanding from these two languages (maybe they'll need Python for a class or two). This past semester I took our PL course which was taught in Haskell. I thought it was an interesting course and strengthened my base in FP (my high school taught CS courses in Racket where I started my foundation). However this was not a large class and from discussion with peers there is generally little interest in learning "esoteric" languages such as Haskell.

todd8 6y ago

CS programs for undergraduate majors have a real dilemma. What programming language should they teach their students. My own kids are studying CS in college so I've seen the curriculums for a number of universities, and I've spoken to the faculty responsible for the language choices at some top programs. To me, there isn't an obvious best programming language to study as an undergraduate. Some schools have a bifurcated curriculum, like Indiana University which has a program in Informatics for those planning to go into a career the requires programming and software engineering skills and a program in CS for those perhaps planning on going into grad school. There, learning Haskell might make sense in the CS program, but does it make sense for other students that want to get out and get a job? My own daughter studied at a school where her first CS class was taught in Scheme (Racket). It, to me, looked like an excellent introduction to programming for someone majoring in CS. They used a book I approved of, How to Design Programs/2ed by Felleisen, et. al. Would Haskell have been better? Maybe, but I predict that more kids would have serious problems with a language like Haskell that is burdened with more challenging concepts and ecosystem. Perhaps Lisp/Scheme is a gentler introduction to applicative programming than Haskell. However most schools start with Python or Java. I understand the arguments for a strongly typed functional programming language like Haskell (my own university research was in program verification many years ago). Early on in CS programs students usually take one or two classes on data structures and algorithms. Data structures in my opinion needs to be taught in C. Haskell, Lisp/Scheme, Python, Java, and even modern C++ are so high level that teaching data structures in these languages ends up with students not learning the proper use of these languages' standard libraries. At some point undergraduates should have an introduction to systems programming, the best text in this area is Computer Systems: A Programmer's Perspective/2ed by Randal E. Bryant and David R. O'Hallaron. This is a great book for undergraduate CS majors. This book requires C programming. So to me, it makes sense to teach data structures in C since students will need to understand it for their first exposure to systems programming. Where should Python fit in the curriculum? It's arguably the most versatile programming language. What about Javascript? When should CS majors be exposed to it. Modern Java is a big language so one semester of use isn't going to be enough and it's too important to ignore. What about C++? It takes years of working with it to become a good but not expert programmer in C++. Should it be a part of the curriculum? So my own recommendations for an undergrad CS program's language choices would be: * Python -- for intro to programming, a course on algorithms, and a machine learning course * C -- for an early class on data structures and a later class on systems programming * Java -- software engineering, and a compiler course * Lisp -- programming languages smorgasbord course, and an AI course * Assembly -- hardware architecture/digital design course * Javascript -- taught as part of a web-applications class * Haskell or OCaml (or maybe Rust) -- intro to functional programming and program verification What do HN readers think about this list? I'm glad I don't have to make the real decisions there are just too many languages that students need to learn in just a few years. As far are my own background I have spent a great deal of time pursuing three different degrees from three different universities in CS. I've been the instructor for university courses for CS majors twice and taught perhaps 40 week long classes to professional programmers within a Fortune 500 company. I've also interviewed and hired many senior developers for my own company.