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In the public forum, Eliot’s stature does seem to be high. Yet I wonder how many people celebrating him are under the age of thirty. Readers over thirty are lik
by Mediterraneo10 6y ago
In the public forum, Eliot’s stature does seem to be high. Yet I wonder how many people celebrating him are under the age of thirty. Readers over thirty are likely to have discovered him in decades past when, firstly, there was more of a culture of actual print books (Eliot’s long and intricate verse works best on the physical page), and secondly, much of the canon (and the whole idea of a canon) had not yet been so savagely criticized as white, male and elitist.
Readers under the age of thirty, on the other hand, may have grown up discovering poetry through a phone screen, and for readers who believe that favoring female and minority voices is a moral and ethical issue, Eliot’s male and privileged background works against him.
Thus, while Eliot’s stature is momentarily high because readers of an older generation with older values are presently in a position of authority and can celebrate him, I suspect a critical backlash in the years to come.
- tines 6y agoI think you're right, which saddens me. Is it not possible for a while elite male to write about the universal? "I will show you fear in a handful of dust." Who could remain unmoved by words like these, regardless of sex or color?
- lostgame 6y agoRight? David Bowie, for instance; incredibly influential to me despite his white male-ness.
- onemoresoop 6y agoDavid Bowie, extremely influential to me as well and not caring what color his skin was, what religion or any affiliation he had. The status quo is irrelevant to me, rather think for myself, stumble on stuff and appreciate it all by myself.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- Mediterraneo10 6y agoDavid Bowie still has considerable cultural weight even amomg some people distrustful of white males, purely because he presented as queer. This turns out to have been an act -- Bowie was comfortable hanging out with queer personalities but he himself was quite vanilla -- but that act was successful.
- pyuser583 6y agoI discovered Eliot in my 20s. I’m still discovering him: I’ve been working my way through Four Quartets for about five years. Spent about 10 years discovering The Waste Land. Yes he’s a privileged white male. But even for younger readers, that’s not a huge turn off. Besides, he may have been gay. Regarding his public stature - he’s still present - more so than, say, Ezra Pound. For example, “Better You Believe” (http://www.nightmare-magazine.com/fiction/better-you-believe/ http://www.nightmare-magazine.com/fiction/better-you-believe...) is one of the most popular short stories of the past decade. It’s partially inspired by the Waste Land. Parts of Song if Ice and Fire also drew inspiration from it.
- vixen99 6y agoSome readers must have an enormous problem with literary output by 'anonymous'. They might even have to resort to judging a piece on its merit.
- artsyca 6y agoI understand what you mean don't let the downvotes discourage you
- artsyca 6y agoI view the waste land as a form of hiphop before the concept ever existed. It's the pinnacle of rhythmic language and I guess it came before the beat generation? But yea it's like reading Ulysses by James Joyce -- you're better off reading it with a guide
- pyuser583 6y agoThe Waste Land was heavily influenced by radio. It’s as if you’re flipping through different channels. Also Eliot included rigorous footnotes. Still helps to have a guide, but the footnotes go a long way.
- pge 6y agoThe Beats are in the 50s (e.g., Howl 1956, On the Road 1957). The Waste Land is 1922.
- dilap 6y ago> for readers who believe that favoring female and minority voices is a moral and ethical issue A strange morality indeed that mandates sexism and racism...
- logicprog 6y agoIndeed. It is produced by the addition of qualifiers to words like "justice." As if justice, equality, and such need qualifiers. It's about inverting oppression instead of getting rid of it. As if oppression is any better inverted.
- watwut 6y agoWhat is strange about it? The male only canon is result of morality that mandated sexism. If that was not strange, adding some women into mix is not strange and existence of some (apparently minority) people who prefer women should not be strange either.
- CamperBob2 6y agoIt comes down to the old question, "Do two wrongs make a right?"
- Mediterraneo10 6y agoIf racism is a function of power, then calling for readers to eschew white male voices in favor of disempowered female and minority voices is arguably not a "wrong".
- IggleSniggle 6y agoI think it's closer to The Trolley Problem.
- dilap 6y agoAdding some women into the mix seems like a whole different kettle of fish than saying that for moral reasons people are going to have to stop enjoying white male authors! (Also, I don't think the prevailing western attitude was that it was immoral to enjoy women authors. They certainly existed and were popular! Shelley, Bronte Sisteres, George Eliot, Jane Austen, probably lots more... I think the situation was more like sexism was a thing and not contraindicated by prevailing morality. To respond to that historical fact by postulating that it's now morally required to not enjoy white + male writers, as some sort of psychic vengeance of evening of the scales, continues to seem strange to me.) (Of course, on an individual level, read whatever you want.)
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- pvg 6y agoLots of Eliot's well-known work is a century old, plenty of it is short, most of it has been through the wringer of various forms of literary theory, interpretation and critique. I'm not sure what evidence there is the idea of a canon has come under some particularly 'savage' recent critique that would affect people under 30 especially or that such people don't read much on paper or that the work itself is particularly tied to paper in some important way. I think you're shoehorning some sort of generalized social critique/viewpoint of your own into the perception of Eliot and I can't see how it actually fits other than by generalities so mushy they can be made to fit anything.
- jaredklewis 6y ago> and for readers who believe that favoring female and minority voices is a moral and ethical issue, Eliot’s male and privileged background works against him. I find it strange that you suggest younger readers would pass over Eliot given his race and background. If one is going to mix ethics and art, surely the fact that Eliot was an adamant anti-semite would be considered long before Eliot's race or background. Even when Eliot was alive, there were calls from those in the currently "over thirty" crowd to discard Eliot (or fellow anti-semites like Ezra Pound) from literary study. My own impressions of "under thirty readers" is far more favorable than yours. They seem as thoughtful as ever and take a very nuanced view of such issues. I think one can recognize the brilliance of Eliot's work, but also argue that time for literary study is limited at every level, so making cuts is inevitable. If we are making cuts anyway, arguing that diversity and ethical considerations are worth considering seems quite reasonable.
- pvg 6y ago(or fellow anti-semites like Ezra Pound) Not to make excuses for Eliot's anti-semitism but Pound was a raging fascist no mere 'fellow anti-semite'. A whole other level of ick.
- starkd 6y agoThe literary critic, Christopher Ricks, disputes that characterization of Eliot as an anti-semite. He wrote a book in defense of him here: https://www.amazon.com/T-Eliot-Prejudice-Christopher-Ricks/dp/0571170358 https://www.amazon.com/T-Eliot-Prejudice-Christopher-Ricks/d...
- jaredklewis 6y agoDoes he? While I haven't read T.S. Eliot and Prejudice my impression is that the book is almost entirely devoted to literary analysis and doesn't attempt to exonerate Eliot himself or draw any definite conclusions about his character. Perhaps you mean Craig Raine's Defence of T. S. Eliot? The thoughts of great literary critics not withstanding, my own conclusion is that I think several of Eliot's poems are anti-semitic in a rather straightforward way.
- 6y ago
- mellosouls 6y agoThus, while Eliot’s stature is momentarily high because readers of an older generation with older values are presently in a position of authority and can celebrate him, I suspect a critical backlash in the years to come. "Older" values like an appreciation of brilliance, originality and beauty? In your ageist dismissal, you inadvertently do the young wise (who won't be so easily misled by similar prejudice) a disservice! There will only be a critical backlash by people whose screwed-tight political blinkers do not permit them to see genius, whatever their age.
- aaisola 6y agoWhile I don't disagree with you, I think at some level we need to remove the "lens" with which we are appreciating poetry or any other art-form and to appreciate it for the art itself. In that regards his privileged upbringing or whiteness shouldn't take away from the merits of his actual poetry.