6 ms·

What are the damage claims for something like this, if any? Surely neither side would want to litigate this.

mothsonasloth 6y ago
Not damage claims. You are going against Larry Ellison, who is the boogey man of enterprise software. The guy can spend money on a buying a Russian Mig29 fighter plane. I am sure he can throw some money to make someones life a misery because he can.
jojobas 6y ago
I'd love EFF to take this on and publish all the discovery findings.
dwheeler 6y ago
Oracle may very well want to litigate it. I doubt they care about the optics. This is the well-known DeWitt clause, so named because Oracle crafted it to squelch database research being performed by Dr. David DeWitt. I believe these clauses should be clearly ruled as illegal, but to my knowledge they still persist. Details here: https://dwheeler.com/essays/dewitt-clause.html https://dwheeler.com/essays/dewitt-clause.html
- amenod 6y ago
  If they decide to litigate, they might learn what a Streisand effect[0] is. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
  - scott_w 6y ago
    > I doubt they care about the optics. I’ve never dealt with Oracle myself, yet even I’ve known about their reputation since before I joined the software industry.
    - amenod 6y ago
      Yes, but this looks like they are scared of benchmarks. Weird, right? :)
      - scott_w 6y ago
        I recall Intel having similar clauses (for ICC?) so I don’t think it’s that strange for certain parts of the industry.
      - dwheeler 6y ago
        They aren't scared of benchmarks, because they've rendered benchmarks about their products illegal unless they like the results.
  - dwheeler 6y ago
    I highly doubt Oracle cares about the Steisand effect. Oracle has long been lampooned for its lawyers, e.g., this old Bonkers World cartoon: https://bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts https://bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts , and people have been complaining about the DeWitt clause since around 1982. I think the Streisand effect is not going to work in this case. The kind of people who decide to write Oracle multi-hundred-million dollar checks don't seem to care about this, because they have kept paying money for decades. So there's no reason for Oracle to care about it. The clause was added specifically at the direction of Larry Ellison. Larry Ellison is co-founder, executive chairman and chief technology officer (CTO) of Oracle, and the sixth richest person in the world... he has no reason to care what people think about these contracts, because no matter what he's still rich. The courts don't care about the Streisand effect either; they're used to people being unhappy about some of their rulings. And if there was going to a Streisand effect, you'd think it'd have already happened in the last 38 years. Don't get me wrong, I loathe the DeWitt clause (as does DeWitt). Making the truth illegal, which is what this does, hurts all of society. But a Streisand effect will not get you there. What's needed is a court ruling or law that strikes such clauses down. I'd much rather see a world where people can freely compare different products. I like Oracle's VirtualBox, for example; that thing can compete on its own merits. But that's my point; products should be able to compete on their own merits, instead of having legal clauses that prevent honest comparisons.
hindsightbias 6y ago
Larry loved those full banner Exadata claims against competitors in your airport terminal. A week later, they’d be gone after HP/Dell/IBM/Cisco sent the lawyers to contest. Larry would just rotate the banner, mission accomplished, no fine with a retraction. Since competitors make bank selling Oracle solutions and can’t publish a bmark w/o his permission he doesn’t need to litigate. It’s his ocean.

Not damage claims. You are going against Larry Ellison, who is the boogey man of enterprise software. The guy can spend money on a buying a Russian Mig29 fighter plane. I am sure he can throw some money to make someones life a misery because he can.

jojobas 6y ago

I'd love EFF to take this on and publish all the discovery findings.

dwheeler 6y ago

Oracle may very well want to litigate it. I doubt they care about the optics. This is the well-known DeWitt clause, so named because Oracle crafted it to squelch database research being performed by Dr. David DeWitt. I believe these clauses should be clearly ruled as illegal, but to my knowledge they still persist. Details here: https://dwheeler.com/essays/dewitt-clause.html https://dwheeler.com/essays/dewitt-clause.html

amenod 6y ago
If they decide to litigate, they might learn what a Streisand effect[0] is. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
- scott_w 6y ago
  > I doubt they care about the optics. I’ve never dealt with Oracle myself, yet even I’ve known about their reputation since before I joined the software industry.
  - amenod 6y ago
    Yes, but this looks like they are scared of benchmarks. Weird, right? :)
    - scott_w 6y ago
      I recall Intel having similar clauses (for ICC?) so I don’t think it’s that strange for certain parts of the industry.
    - dwheeler 6y ago
      They aren't scared of benchmarks, because they've rendered benchmarks about their products illegal unless they like the results.
- dwheeler 6y ago
  I highly doubt Oracle cares about the Steisand effect. Oracle has long been lampooned for its lawyers, e.g., this old Bonkers World cartoon: https://bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts https://bonkersworld.net/organizational-charts , and people have been complaining about the DeWitt clause since around 1982. I think the Streisand effect is not going to work in this case. The kind of people who decide to write Oracle multi-hundred-million dollar checks don't seem to care about this, because they have kept paying money for decades. So there's no reason for Oracle to care about it. The clause was added specifically at the direction of Larry Ellison. Larry Ellison is co-founder, executive chairman and chief technology officer (CTO) of Oracle, and the sixth richest person in the world... he has no reason to care what people think about these contracts, because no matter what he's still rich. The courts don't care about the Streisand effect either; they're used to people being unhappy about some of their rulings. And if there was going to a Streisand effect, you'd think it'd have already happened in the last 38 years. Don't get me wrong, I loathe the DeWitt clause (as does DeWitt). Making the truth illegal, which is what this does, hurts all of society. But a Streisand effect will not get you there. What's needed is a court ruling or law that strikes such clauses down. I'd much rather see a world where people can freely compare different products. I like Oracle's VirtualBox, for example; that thing can compete on its own merits. But that's my point; products should be able to compete on their own merits, instead of having legal clauses that prevent honest comparisons.

hindsightbias 6y ago

Larry loved those full banner Exadata claims against competitors in your airport terminal. A week later, they’d be gone after HP/Dell/IBM/Cisco sent the lawyers to contest. Larry would just rotate the banner, mission accomplished, no fine with a retraction. Since competitors make bank selling Oracle solutions and can’t publish a bmark w/o his permission he doesn’t need to litigate. It’s his ocean.