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> If you write your own solution to the problem, it will (almost by definition, and assuming you write decent code) be a smaller, tighter, faster and more appro

> If you write your own solution to the problem, it will (almost by definition, and assuming you write decent code) be a smaller, tighter, faster and more appropriate solution than the framework solution. Only if you know what you are doing. I have read smart people admit that at some point they realized that the compiler had outsmarted their clever inline assembly hacks and I fully expect this to be true in a frameworks vs homebuilt scenario as well. Also: The number of people who knows my or your brilliant solution will always be dwarfed by the number of people who knows Rails, Django, Laravel or Spring, meaning as soon as you need to hire you are at a significant disadvantage. (I've seen brilliant people running frameworkless also, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for more ordinary people like me ;-)

marcus_holmes 6y ago
I kinda get this, the "framework maintainers are superhumans who write amazing code and nothing I could write could get close to that" attitude. But the framework maintainers aren't looking at your specific situation. I mean sure, if you're writing yet another CRUD system for yet another SaaS product, then fine, use Rails, that's what it was designed for. But if you're not building Basecamp, then your application is eventually going to want to do something that Rails wasn't intended to do. And then you're going to have to write your own code. And if you're not confident that you can write that code, because you don't think you can write good enough code for this... then... why are you doing this?
- mcherm 6y ago
  > I kinda get this, the "framework maintainers are superhumans who write amazing code and nothing I could write could get close to that" attitude. I don't think that's the actual message. I think the real message is more like "framework maintainers have significantly more total time invested than you do..." (especially when you add up over all the maintainers and bug reporters over the entire life of the framework) "...so they are more likely to have correctly handled some particular rare bug or special case than if you try to do it all yourself."
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  This opinion is worthy of an artist. But I would only even hire engineers.
- eitland 6y ago
  > I kinda get this, the "framework maintainers are superhumans who write amazing code and nothing I could write could get close to that" attitude. As had been pointed out before: they don't have to be much smarter, they just have to have more time at hand or be more people, get more bug reports, get more improvement ideas etc. > But the framework maintainers aren't looking at your specific situation. I mean sure, if you're writing yet another CRUD system for yet another SaaS product, then fine, use Rails, that's what it was designed for. Let me assure you that I am not using Rails for my hypothetical real time radar tracking system and I'm not recommending anyone else using it for anything either except what it is made for ;-) That said I think many people will find that their use cases aren't that special. > But if you're not building Basecamp, then your application is eventually going to want to do something that Rails wasn't intended to do. And then you're going to have to write your own code. Did you ever try Rails? > And if you're not confident that you can write that code, because you don't think you can write good enough code for this... then... why are you doing this? This is a very uncharitable interpretation IMO. Maybe we just have better things to do than reinventing the wheel again right now..? (To be clear: sometimes the wheel needs to be reinvented, but every single time.)

marcus_holmes 6y ago

I kinda get this, the "framework maintainers are superhumans who write amazing code and nothing I could write could get close to that" attitude. But the framework maintainers aren't looking at your specific situation. I mean sure, if you're writing yet another CRUD system for yet another SaaS product, then fine, use Rails, that's what it was designed for. But if you're not building Basecamp, then your application is eventually going to want to do something that Rails wasn't intended to do. And then you're going to have to write your own code. And if you're not confident that you can write that code, because you don't think you can write good enough code for this... then... why are you doing this?

mcherm 6y ago
> I kinda get this, the "framework maintainers are superhumans who write amazing code and nothing I could write could get close to that" attitude. I don't think that's the actual message. I think the real message is more like "framework maintainers have significantly more total time invested than you do..." (especially when you add up over all the maintainers and bug reporters over the entire life of the framework) "...so they are more likely to have correctly handled some particular rare bug or special case than if you try to do it all yourself."
heavenlyblue 6y ago
This opinion is worthy of an artist. But I would only even hire engineers.
eitland 6y ago
> I kinda get this, the "framework maintainers are superhumans who write amazing code and nothing I could write could get close to that" attitude. As had been pointed out before: they don't have to be much smarter, they just have to have more time at hand or be more people, get more bug reports, get more improvement ideas etc. > But the framework maintainers aren't looking at your specific situation. I mean sure, if you're writing yet another CRUD system for yet another SaaS product, then fine, use Rails, that's what it was designed for. Let me assure you that I am not using Rails for my hypothetical real time radar tracking system and I'm not recommending anyone else using it for anything either except what it is made for ;-) That said I think many people will find that their use cases aren't that special. > But if you're not building Basecamp, then your application is eventually going to want to do something that Rails wasn't intended to do. And then you're going to have to write your own code. Did you ever try Rails? > And if you're not confident that you can write that code, because you don't think you can write good enough code for this... then... why are you doing this? This is a very uncharitable interpretation IMO. Maybe we just have better things to do than reinventing the wheel again right now..? (To be clear: sometimes the wheel needs to be reinvented, but every single time.)