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I think for this movement to have integrity you would have to build the apps people think are impossible with vanilla. You’d need to build those apps/apis in a

I think for this movement to have integrity you would have to build the apps people think are impossible with vanilla. You’d need to build those apps/apis in a minimal and elegant way to prove it’s possible. It’s beyond conception for many. In other words, the complete opposite of what the frameworks show. They always show a todo list, or a blog. You’ll have to come heavy with way more complex apps with simple implementations. That would be ambitious and could change minds. I’m rooting for you guys. In fact, it might be a great re-take on CSS zen garden if you guys accepted submissions for vanilla implementations and just showcased all the ways it’s possible.

hinkley 6y ago
You can do a lot with libraries. Removing a framework doesn’t mean removing all third party code, you know. The fallacy of the excluded middle gets us into more trouble than just about anything.
- runawaybottle 6y ago
  I don’t disagree with you but in this case you want to encourage conciseness and simplicity which fundamentally requires constraints (whatever they may be, but at the very least we’re definitely sure no frameworks :p).
charlysl 6y ago
Check out the book Single Page Web Applications (2013), and its author's blog https://michaelmikowski.com/ https://michaelmikowski.com/ He has been an advocate of this frameworkless approach for many years, and in his book he shows exactly how it's done (might have aged a bit, pre-ES6, this niche is moving fast, but the gist hasn't changed). The running example in the book is a chat web app with a frameworkless js front end and a node.js backend, using socket.io and mongo. For what it's worth, this is one of the recommended books for MIT's web dev course alongside Javascript The Good Parts, Ninja and Patterns (https://stellar.mit.edu/S/course/6/fa18/6.170/courseMaterial/topics/topic1/resource/text1/text https://stellar.mit.edu/S/course/6/fa18/6.170/courseMaterial...)
- choward 6y ago
  I tried playing one of his open source games (typebomb) and then tried finding the source and for the life of me I couldn't.
  - charlysl 6y ago
    Took me less than one minute ;) https://github.com/mmikowski/hi_score/tree/master/js/app-tb02 https://github.com/mmikowski/hi_score/tree/master/js/app-tb0... It is actually an instance of the frameworkless approach he describes in the book above.
    - choward 6y ago
      I didn't realize hi_score was the same thing.

hinkley 6y ago

You can do a lot with libraries. Removing a framework doesn’t mean removing all third party code, you know. The fallacy of the excluded middle gets us into more trouble than just about anything.

runawaybottle 6y ago
I don’t disagree with you but in this case you want to encourage conciseness and simplicity which fundamentally requires constraints (whatever they may be, but at the very least we’re definitely sure no frameworks :p).

charlysl 6y ago

Check out the book Single Page Web Applications (2013), and its author's blog https://michaelmikowski.com/ https://michaelmikowski.com/ He has been an advocate of this frameworkless approach for many years, and in his book he shows exactly how it's done (might have aged a bit, pre-ES6, this niche is moving fast, but the gist hasn't changed). The running example in the book is a chat web app with a frameworkless js front end and a node.js backend, using socket.io and mongo. For what it's worth, this is one of the recommended books for MIT's web dev course alongside Javascript The Good Parts, Ninja and Patterns (https://stellar.mit.edu/S/course/6/fa18/6.170/courseMaterial/topics/topic1/resource/text1/text https://stellar.mit.edu/S/course/6/fa18/6.170/courseMaterial...)

choward 6y ago
I tried playing one of his open source games (typebomb) and then tried finding the source and for the life of me I couldn't.
- charlysl 6y ago
  Took me less than one minute ;) https://github.com/mmikowski/hi_score/tree/master/js/app-tb02 https://github.com/mmikowski/hi_score/tree/master/js/app-tb0... It is actually an instance of the frameworkless approach he describes in the book above.
  - choward 6y ago
    I didn't realize hi_score was the same thing.