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People hoard when there are shortages and/or urgent need and/or they read about it in the paper and/or they think they can make a quick buck. Nothing about "fr

People hoard when there are shortages and/or urgent need and/or they read about it in the paper and/or they think they can make a quick buck. Nothing about "free market" precludes these conditions.

WalterBright 6y ago
Free markets don't have shortages. For example, why don't we have shortages of beef and chicken, while fish are threatened with extinction? For another, during the California and Yukon gold rushes, men rushed to the gold fields. Women rushed, too, but not to mine the earth for gold, but to mine the men for their gold.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  That sounds naïve. What do we call it, when demand outstrips supply? A shortage. Maybe temporary, maybe a bubble, but real.
  - nickpp 6y ago
    The demand for yachts at 1$ apiece will always outstrip supply. Do we have a yacht shortage then? No, because yachts cost much more than 1$ apiece. There are no shortages in free markets.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      That's getting absurd. The supply of a widget that I just made of paperclip at $1M apiece will never outstrip supply, even though there's just one of such widgets, because there's exactly zero demand at that price. You can define any shortage out of existence this way. Perhaps your point is that, on a free market, the supply and demand will always meet at the right price point. Yes, that works long-term. Short-term, it doesn't, because sellers have every reason to look at the first and second derivative of the price - to hold off selling until they believe the demand for a product is about to reach its peak - and only then actually sell out their supply. This of course will cause the prices to go down, but by that time, the emergency may just be over, and a lot of people who needed the product then will have suffered and/or died. The way I see it, this is literally the same mechanism stock trading is based on, and yet nobody here seems to have a problem understanding it there. Supply and demand, right? So if I know the demand tomorrow will be larger than today, I'll hold off selling my stocks, and I'll hold them until the point I see demand starting to fall back down.
      - WalterBright 6y ago
        > Short-term, it doesn't, Of course it does. > hold off selling until they believe the demand for a product is about to reach its peak Of course, people famously are unable to correctly predict when that peak is, and so your scenario will never happen. (Some will sell early, some late.) If you're good at predicting stock prices better than everyone else who is trying to, you can make a billion in short order. Good luck!
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    I went to dinner once with friends. One friend asked his date what she'd like for dessert. She said crème brûlée. He called the waiter over, and said please get some for her. The waiter said they didn't have crème brûlée. My friend said, you don't understand, she wants crème brûlée, and I'll pay for it. The waiter reiterated that they didn't have crème brûlée and couldn't get it. My friend finally said you don't understand. I don't care what you have to do to get crème brûlée, and I will pay for it. The waiter said I understand, and shortly came back with crème brûlée. He had ordered it from another restaurant and hired a taxi to go get it. The waiter got a nice tip, and my friend's date enjoyed crème brûlée for dessert. Everyone was happy. And that's how "shortages" work in the free market.
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      In the modern world, there's just one source of many products. All the jeans in the world, from Korea. All the memory chips from a few factories. All the anecdotes about going down the street for homely puddings, have little to do with the larger markets in the modern world.
      - WalterBright 6y ago
        And yet the only time we have shortages is when the government steps in and fixes the price and/or the supply.
        JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        Completely false and deliberately argumentative. Try harder.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  > For example, why don't we have shortages of beef and chicken, while fish are threatened with extinction? Because farmers can easily breed beef and chicken; fishermen cannot easily breed their own fish - the fish have a nasty habit of not respecting imaginary property lines in water, and you can't just put fences in an ocean. It's worth noting that the free market is precisely why fish are threatened with extinction. It's a textbook tragedy of the commons, for which the solution is regulatory in nature.
  - WalterBright 6y ago
    The tragedy of the commons is NOT free market. Anything communally owned is not part of the free market. Fish farms are a real (and growing) thing.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      You have natural commons. Supply of fish is one. > Fish farms are a real (and growing) thing. Glad to hear that. This will enable the free market to work properly in this space.

People hoard when there are shortages and/or urgent need and/or they read about it in the paper and/or they think they can make a quick buck. Nothing about "free market" precludes these conditions.

WalterBright 6y ago

Free markets don't have shortages. For example, why don't we have shortages of beef and chicken, while fish are threatened with extinction? For another, during the California and Yukon gold rushes, men rushed to the gold fields. Women rushed, too, but not to mine the earth for gold, but to mine the men for their gold.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
That sounds naïve. What do we call it, when demand outstrips supply? A shortage. Maybe temporary, maybe a bubble, but real.
- nickpp 6y ago
  The demand for yachts at 1$ apiece will always outstrip supply. Do we have a yacht shortage then? No, because yachts cost much more than 1$ apiece. There are no shortages in free markets.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    That's getting absurd. The supply of a widget that I just made of paperclip at $1M apiece will never outstrip supply, even though there's just one of such widgets, because there's exactly zero demand at that price. You can define any shortage out of existence this way. Perhaps your point is that, on a free market, the supply and demand will always meet at the right price point. Yes, that works long-term. Short-term, it doesn't, because sellers have every reason to look at the first and second derivative of the price - to hold off selling until they believe the demand for a product is about to reach its peak - and only then actually sell out their supply. This of course will cause the prices to go down, but by that time, the emergency may just be over, and a lot of people who needed the product then will have suffered and/or died. The way I see it, this is literally the same mechanism stock trading is based on, and yet nobody here seems to have a problem understanding it there. Supply and demand, right? So if I know the demand tomorrow will be larger than today, I'll hold off selling my stocks, and I'll hold them until the point I see demand starting to fall back down.
    - WalterBright 6y ago
      > Short-term, it doesn't, Of course it does. > hold off selling until they believe the demand for a product is about to reach its peak Of course, people famously are unable to correctly predict when that peak is, and so your scenario will never happen. (Some will sell early, some late.) If you're good at predicting stock prices better than everyone else who is trying to, you can make a billion in short order. Good luck!
- WalterBright 6y ago
  I went to dinner once with friends. One friend asked his date what she'd like for dessert. She said crème brûlée. He called the waiter over, and said please get some for her. The waiter said they didn't have crème brûlée. My friend said, you don't understand, she wants crème brûlée, and I'll pay for it. The waiter reiterated that they didn't have crème brûlée and couldn't get it. My friend finally said you don't understand. I don't care what you have to do to get crème brûlée, and I will pay for it. The waiter said I understand, and shortly came back with crème brûlée. He had ordered it from another restaurant and hired a taxi to go get it. The waiter got a nice tip, and my friend's date enjoyed crème brûlée for dessert. Everyone was happy. And that's how "shortages" work in the free market.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    In the modern world, there's just one source of many products. All the jeans in the world, from Korea. All the memory chips from a few factories. All the anecdotes about going down the street for homely puddings, have little to do with the larger markets in the modern world.
    - WalterBright 6y ago
      And yet the only time we have shortages is when the government steps in and fixes the price and/or the supply.
      - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        Completely false and deliberately argumentative. Try harder.
TeMPOraL 6y ago
> For example, why don't we have shortages of beef and chicken, while fish are threatened with extinction? Because farmers can easily breed beef and chicken; fishermen cannot easily breed their own fish - the fish have a nasty habit of not respecting imaginary property lines in water, and you can't just put fences in an ocean. It's worth noting that the free market is precisely why fish are threatened with extinction. It's a textbook tragedy of the commons, for which the solution is regulatory in nature.
- WalterBright 6y ago
  The tragedy of the commons is NOT free market. Anything communally owned is not part of the free market. Fish farms are a real (and growing) thing.
  - TeMPOraL 6y ago
    You have natural commons. Supply of fish is one. > Fish farms are a real (and growing) thing. Glad to hear that. This will enable the free market to work properly in this space.