9 ms·

Where do you draw the distinction between a drone (presumably unarmed) vs a police helicopter?

r00fus 6y ago
Police helicopters don't have hellfire missiles as standard optional armament. Also police helicopters are operated by local/state forces. This is a federal agency which is way out of its jurisdiction.
- stult 6y ago
  > Police helicopters don't have hellfire missiles as standard optional armament. I mean, they could. And firefighting planes could be rerigged to disperse chemical weapons, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them existing. >Also police helicopters are operated by local/state forces. This is a federal agency which is way out of its jurisdiction. I'm guessing it's on loan. It's hardly unusual or questionable for the feds to provide assistance to local police during periods of extraordinary crisis. However justified the people of Minneapolis may be in reacting this way to yet another police homicide, what else are the local police supposed to do now except try to restore order using whatever tools are available? Including drones that can provide immediate information about hotspots, crowds, fires, etc.
  - dv_dt 6y ago
    Perhaps this is too political, but the only tool they actually needed was one they had the whole time. Charge the offices based upon the evidence and open a more detailed investigation. The military equipment was entirely unnecessary - but it's very availability makes opportunity for bad decisions.
    - meragrin_ 6y ago
      In all probability, union rules stand in the way of making any quick arrests. Their hands are tied. It is better for them to appear slow and do things by the book than try to appease the irrational mob. They'll eventually get to where the mob wants to go rather than ending up with the cops "winning" in some way due violations of union rules and procedures.
      - HarryHirsch 6y ago
        It's hard to see why union rules would trump criminal procedure - if that were true the cops would really be a law above the law. You'd think the much delayed arrest was so that the suspects had time to scrub social media, get rid of Nazi paraphernalia, get their stories straight, that kind of thing. They can't get their fellow officers in trouble, that's part of their code.
        luckylion 6y ago
        Or, hear me out, the "delayed" arrests are so they don't make mistakes that would result in a mistrial because they don't want you to jump up and yell "they intentionally violated their rights so the judge would throw the case out".
        HarryHirsch 6y ago
        There was more than enough probable cause for arrest, and after the perp has been arrested, prosecution has 72 hours to build a case and press charges. This is just more of the usual, also because the career of the prosecutor depends on the goodwill of the cops.
        meragrin_ 6y ago
        It is a government position. It requires training and interactions which may cause death. If a person were trained to restrain a person in a manner which has a high likelihood to cause death and not informed of the risks, should the incorrectly trained person really be held liable for the person's death?
        michaelmrose 6y ago
        As I sit here trying to imagine the manner it which someone could come to the same conclusion as you I find myself unequal to the task. I don't know how it is possible for a person to come to the same conclusion after watching the tape. It took 8 minuted for him to die 3 minutes of which he was unresponsive while people warned the cop and asked him to stop. The victim informed the murderer of exactly how he was being murdered and asked him to stop. He called out for his mother then stopped speaking at all while he died in silence. The method he was being killed would have been completely obvious to anyone who possessed a pair of lungs or understood how breathing worked. Nobody gives precisely one hot damn what manner of training he received. It was obvious he was murdering his victim to a human of ordinary capability. The logical conclusion is that he didn't care or wanted to murder him.
- ip26 6y ago
  Are you sure? Police use military surplus helicopters, such as the Cobra and Black Hawk, both of which can be armed with hellfires.
  - dogma1138 6y ago
    Which police forces use Cobra helicopters? These are gunships that have no utility what so ever. As for Blackhawks I’ve never seen them used by police forces, those in civilian use are not surplus military helicopters or even the UH-60 but rather it’s civilian version the Sikorsky S-70 which are used by fire departments and search and rescue crews.
    - snypher 6y ago
      The Mexican Federal Police operate 6 Blackhawks provided by the US CBP. But it would be fair to say they serve a more militarized role than say Seattle PD. https://youtu.be/mBTs6BGMa3U https://youtu.be/mBTs6BGMa3U
      - dogma1138 6y ago
        I see nothing wrong with Blackhawks in civilian use they are one of the best medium transport helicopters out there. SAR, medevac, fire fightings etc. are all roles that the Blackhawk is perfectly suited for and all for which it has dedicated variants. As for law enforcement use again I don’t see a problem with it, the use of them is mostly restricted to very special cases (FBI/DEA etc) due to cost of both the aircraft itself and the operational costs. The Mexican federal police is indeed essentially an army at this point since they engage in paramilitary operations against the cartels. On the other hand Cobras have no use other than to spray a target with their auto cannon or missiles. So I was really curious what police force in the US or anyone is operating attack helicopters.
    - ip26 6y ago
      Sorry, mixed up UH-1 and AH-1. https://www.army.mil/article/180593/last_uh_1_huey_a_42_year_military_veteran_retires https://www.army.mil/article/180593/last_uh_1_huey_a_42_year... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zunO6iUVUT0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zunO6iUVUT0
- kube-system 6y ago
  Do 70mm rockets count? https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Local-police-well-armed-with-surplus-military-5724525.php https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Local-police-... But really, there's little difference between a lot of civilian and light military aircraft. The Bell 206 that your local news station probably flies around was developed as a military helicopter.
  - cameldrv 6y ago
    The police aren't getting the 70mm rockets, or the launchers for them nor are the police pilots trained to use them. There's really almost no difference between the civilian Bell 204/212 and the military Huey, and Bell has sold lots of civilian Hueys. I really can't see what the problem would be with the military surplussing them to the police.
- Simulacra 6y ago
  I don't think this drone has any hellfire missiles. While it's true, it could, it's not a stretch to imagine a door mounted machine gun on a police helicopter. Both can be used for peace, or war.
- 2019-nCoV 6y ago
  The local forces failed (rather told to stand down) in Minneapolis. You really think they'd let the city just burn to the ground before bringing federal agencies?
colejohnson66 6y ago
One is purposefully designed to surveil and kill (the Predator drone), while the other has a variety of uses. That’s where I draw the line: what was the purpose of creating it?
- bdesbrisay 6y ago
  The drone is also controlled remotely and thus has more of a disconnect between the “pilot” and the subject. The police helicopter has a human element to/in it so the pilot would feel more responsibility for the destruction they caused if it were right in front of their eyes.
  - jandrese 6y ago
    This seems speculative to me. Helicopter pilots are already hundreds or thousands of feet away from the action, they're not looking people directly in the eyes.
  - outworlder 6y ago
    This is unsupported by evidence. Drone operators have a high incidence of PTSD. > Studies have found similar levels of depression and PTSD among drone pilots working behind a bank of computers as among military personnel deployed to the battlefield. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/18/life-as-a-drone-pilot-creech-air-force-base-nevada https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/18/life-as-a-dron...
    - koheripbal 6y ago
      This is for ATTACK drones, where they are actually killing people or coordinating fire. We are talking here about SURVEILLANCE drones.
      - catalogia 6y ago
        > The police helicopter has a human element to/in it so the pilot would feel more responsibility for the destruction they caused if it were right in front of their eyes. This comment sounds like it's about attack drones. I concede that it's not necessarily about attack drones; a surveillance drone operator might facilitate and witness a lethal attack, and in that sense "cause" the destruction.
jointpdf 6y ago
One of the factors is the potential persistence and scale of drone-based surveillance systems. I think asking that question is important, because we have the capability to deploy (and shockingly, have deployed, at least on a trial basis) constant wide-area surveillance via drones in the US (Gorgon Stare): https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-battlefield-surveillance-comes-to-your-town-11564805394 https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-battlefield-surveillance-c...
kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
One is operated by a federal institution that is not responsible for internal domestic affairs.
ortusdux 6y ago
Philly, 1985: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing "There was an armed standoff with police,[5] who lobbed tear gas canisters at the building. The MOVE members fired at them and a gunfight with semi-automatic and automatic firearms ensued.[32] Police went through over ten thousand rounds of ammunition before Commissioner Sambor ordered that the compound be bombed.[32] From a Pennsylvania State Police helicopter, Philadelphia Police Department Lt. Frank Powell proceeded to drop two one-pound bombs (which the police referred to as "entry devices"[31]) made of FBI-supplied Tovex, a dynamite substitute, targeting a fortified, bunker-like cubicle on the roof of the house.[29]" Police helicopters are modified civilian aircraft and yet they have been used by the police, through improvised means, to bomb people. The drone over Minneapolis is a MQ-9 reaper, aka "predator B", hunter-killer UAV. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-9_Reaper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-9_Reaper "In 2006, the then–Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force General T. Michael Moseley said: "We've moved from using UAVs primarily in intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance roles before Operation Iraqi Freedom, to a true hunter-killer role with the Reaper."[6] The MQ-9 is a larger, heavier, and more capable aircraft than the earlier General Atomics MQ-1 Predator; it can be controlled by the same ground systems used to control MQ-1s. The Reaper has a 950-shaft-horsepower (712 kW) turboprop engine (compared to the Predator's 115 hp (86 kW) piston engine). The greater power allows the Reaper to carry 15 times more ordnance payload and cruise at about three times the speed of the MQ-1.[6] "
- mattkrause 6y ago
  It's obviously sinister and is a pretty good hint at the end goals, but "Hunter-Killer" is also the project name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Hunter-Killer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Hunter-Killer
  - outworlder 6y ago
    > Hunter Killer So Skynet's schedule is coming back on track once again. https://terminator.fandom.com/wiki/HK-Aerial https://terminator.fandom.com/wiki/HK-Aerial
  - 6y ago
chrismcb 6y ago
I think the difference is in cost (time and money) as well as stealth. A small drone is easily deployed and fairly unobtrusive. A helicopter takes a bit more time and I think it's more expensive. Plus it isn't exactly stealthy.
_jal 6y ago
Economics and automation. To look at a related question, where do you draw the line between stakeouts and planting GPS devices? The question should not be some sort of line-drawing based on looking at the narrow capabilities of a particular device or practice change. It needs to be a look at what those capabilities do to the current balance of civilian rights and responsibilities, and whether we wish to live in a world of robotic surveillance and law enforcement.
Alupis 6y ago
I think we first need to determine what is upsetting about this, specifically. Is it that they are flying a UAV that was originally designed for military use? Or is it that they are flying a UAV period? What if it was a new UAV, designed just for law enforcement? No problems then? Presumably this UAV has no weapons on it, so I'm unsure what the problem could be unless we just flat oppose former military equipment being used? It's safer and cheaper to fly a UAV than a manned vehicled - helicopters crash routinely and need multiple crews to keep them on station for extended duration. If it was a decommissioned military UAV that's being repurposed - then the tax payer has been saved a great deal of money as well. So, what specifically is it that we don't like about this situation?
- NegativeLatency 6y ago
  The military industrial police state
- koheripbal 6y ago
  I think you are expecting logical reasoning from a group of people who are acting emotionally. any form of government law enforcement personnel or equipment is drawing anger - regardless of form, function, or origin.
- _jal 6y ago
  As I said in another comment, the importance of the change doesn't lie in a narrow look at the changed component. It is formally about the overall balance of rights, responsibilities of citizens and police/military[1], and less formally about trust between the two and the overall climate we want to live in, as a country. If you make a given police enforcement mechanism cheaper, it will be used more. What does that do to your average person's sense of privacy/fear/trust? What kind of relationship do we want to have between citizens[2] and its government? [1] That line is being blurred. [2] Not subjects
  - Alupis 6y ago
    I suppose, to that end, what about my rights to not be looted or have my car flipped over and set ablaze? I suppose in those situations, I'd be grateful for some law enforcement presence monitoring the situation and guiding folks on the ground to the most appropriate places needing the most attention.
natch 6y ago
I can’t speak for OP but a distinction with any drone is there is no crew being put in (physical) harm’s way. One significant consequence of that is it’s way easier to ramp up to a larger scale for whatever they might have in mind.

Police helicopters don't have hellfire missiles as standard optional armament. Also police helicopters are operated by local/state forces. This is a federal agency which is way out of its jurisdiction.

stult 6y ago
> Police helicopters don't have hellfire missiles as standard optional armament. I mean, they could. And firefighting planes could be rerigged to disperse chemical weapons, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them existing. >Also police helicopters are operated by local/state forces. This is a federal agency which is way out of its jurisdiction. I'm guessing it's on loan. It's hardly unusual or questionable for the feds to provide assistance to local police during periods of extraordinary crisis. However justified the people of Minneapolis may be in reacting this way to yet another police homicide, what else are the local police supposed to do now except try to restore order using whatever tools are available? Including drones that can provide immediate information about hotspots, crowds, fires, etc.
- dv_dt 6y ago
  Perhaps this is too political, but the only tool they actually needed was one they had the whole time. Charge the offices based upon the evidence and open a more detailed investigation. The military equipment was entirely unnecessary - but it's very availability makes opportunity for bad decisions.
  - meragrin_ 6y ago
    In all probability, union rules stand in the way of making any quick arrests. Their hands are tied. It is better for them to appear slow and do things by the book than try to appease the irrational mob. They'll eventually get to where the mob wants to go rather than ending up with the cops "winning" in some way due violations of union rules and procedures.
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      It's hard to see why union rules would trump criminal procedure - if that were true the cops would really be a law above the law. You'd think the much delayed arrest was so that the suspects had time to scrub social media, get rid of Nazi paraphernalia, get their stories straight, that kind of thing. They can't get their fellow officers in trouble, that's part of their code.
      - luckylion 6y ago
        Or, hear me out, the "delayed" arrests are so they don't make mistakes that would result in a mistrial because they don't want you to jump up and yell "they intentionally violated their rights so the judge would throw the case out".
        HarryHirsch 6y ago
        There was more than enough probable cause for arrest, and after the perp has been arrested, prosecution has 72 hours to build a case and press charges. This is just more of the usual, also because the career of the prosecutor depends on the goodwill of the cops.
      - meragrin_ 6y ago
        It is a government position. It requires training and interactions which may cause death. If a person were trained to restrain a person in a manner which has a high likelihood to cause death and not informed of the risks, should the incorrectly trained person really be held liable for the person's death?
        michaelmrose 6y ago
        As I sit here trying to imagine the manner it which someone could come to the same conclusion as you I find myself unequal to the task. I don't know how it is possible for a person to come to the same conclusion after watching the tape. It took 8 minuted for him to die 3 minutes of which he was unresponsive while people warned the cop and asked him to stop. The victim informed the murderer of exactly how he was being murdered and asked him to stop. He called out for his mother then stopped speaking at all while he died in silence. The method he was being killed would have been completely obvious to anyone who possessed a pair of lungs or understood how breathing worked. Nobody gives precisely one hot damn what manner of training he received. It was obvious he was murdering his victim to a human of ordinary capability. The logical conclusion is that he didn't care or wanted to murder him.
ip26 6y ago
Are you sure? Police use military surplus helicopters, such as the Cobra and Black Hawk, both of which can be armed with hellfires.
- dogma1138 6y ago
  Which police forces use Cobra helicopters? These are gunships that have no utility what so ever. As for Blackhawks I’ve never seen them used by police forces, those in civilian use are not surplus military helicopters or even the UH-60 but rather it’s civilian version the Sikorsky S-70 which are used by fire departments and search and rescue crews.
  - snypher 6y ago
    The Mexican Federal Police operate 6 Blackhawks provided by the US CBP. But it would be fair to say they serve a more militarized role than say Seattle PD. https://youtu.be/mBTs6BGMa3U https://youtu.be/mBTs6BGMa3U
    - dogma1138 6y ago
      I see nothing wrong with Blackhawks in civilian use they are one of the best medium transport helicopters out there. SAR, medevac, fire fightings etc. are all roles that the Blackhawk is perfectly suited for and all for which it has dedicated variants. As for law enforcement use again I don’t see a problem with it, the use of them is mostly restricted to very special cases (FBI/DEA etc) due to cost of both the aircraft itself and the operational costs. The Mexican federal police is indeed essentially an army at this point since they engage in paramilitary operations against the cartels. On the other hand Cobras have no use other than to spray a target with their auto cannon or missiles. So I was really curious what police force in the US or anyone is operating attack helicopters.
  - ip26 6y ago
    Sorry, mixed up UH-1 and AH-1. https://www.army.mil/article/180593/last_uh_1_huey_a_42_year_military_veteran_retires https://www.army.mil/article/180593/last_uh_1_huey_a_42_year... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zunO6iUVUT0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zunO6iUVUT0
kube-system 6y ago
Do 70mm rockets count? https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Local-police-well-armed-with-surplus-military-5724525.php https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Local-police-... But really, there's little difference between a lot of civilian and light military aircraft. The Bell 206 that your local news station probably flies around was developed as a military helicopter.
- cameldrv 6y ago
  The police aren't getting the 70mm rockets, or the launchers for them nor are the police pilots trained to use them. There's really almost no difference between the civilian Bell 204/212 and the military Huey, and Bell has sold lots of civilian Hueys. I really can't see what the problem would be with the military surplussing them to the police.
Simulacra 6y ago
I don't think this drone has any hellfire missiles. While it's true, it could, it's not a stretch to imagine a door mounted machine gun on a police helicopter. Both can be used for peace, or war.
2019-nCoV 6y ago
The local forces failed (rather told to stand down) in Minneapolis. You really think they'd let the city just burn to the ground before bringing federal agencies?

colejohnson66 6y ago

One is purposefully designed to surveil and kill (the Predator drone), while the other has a variety of uses. That’s where I draw the line: what was the purpose of creating it?

bdesbrisay 6y ago
The drone is also controlled remotely and thus has more of a disconnect between the “pilot” and the subject. The police helicopter has a human element to/in it so the pilot would feel more responsibility for the destruction they caused if it were right in front of their eyes.
- jandrese 6y ago
  This seems speculative to me. Helicopter pilots are already hundreds or thousands of feet away from the action, they're not looking people directly in the eyes.
- outworlder 6y ago
  This is unsupported by evidence. Drone operators have a high incidence of PTSD. > Studies have found similar levels of depression and PTSD among drone pilots working behind a bank of computers as among military personnel deployed to the battlefield. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/18/life-as-a-drone-pilot-creech-air-force-base-nevada https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/18/life-as-a-dron...
  - koheripbal 6y ago
    This is for ATTACK drones, where they are actually killing people or coordinating fire. We are talking here about SURVEILLANCE drones.
    - catalogia 6y ago
      > The police helicopter has a human element to/in it so the pilot would feel more responsibility for the destruction they caused if it were right in front of their eyes. This comment sounds like it's about attack drones. I concede that it's not necessarily about attack drones; a surveillance drone operator might facilitate and witness a lethal attack, and in that sense "cause" the destruction.

jointpdf 6y ago

One of the factors is the potential persistence and scale of drone-based surveillance systems. I think asking that question is important, because we have the capability to deploy (and shockingly, have deployed, at least on a trial basis) constant wide-area surveillance via drones in the US (Gorgon Stare): https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-battlefield-surveillance-comes-to-your-town-11564805394 https://www.wsj.com/articles/when-battlefield-surveillance-c...

kevin_thibedeau 6y ago

One is operated by a federal institution that is not responsible for internal domestic affairs.

ortusdux 6y ago

Philly, 1985: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing "There was an armed standoff with police,[5] who lobbed tear gas canisters at the building. The MOVE members fired at them and a gunfight with semi-automatic and automatic firearms ensued.[32] Police went through over ten thousand rounds of ammunition before Commissioner Sambor ordered that the compound be bombed.[32] From a Pennsylvania State Police helicopter, Philadelphia Police Department Lt. Frank Powell proceeded to drop two one-pound bombs (which the police referred to as "entry devices"[31]) made of FBI-supplied Tovex, a dynamite substitute, targeting a fortified, bunker-like cubicle on the roof of the house.[29]" Police helicopters are modified civilian aircraft and yet they have been used by the police, through improvised means, to bomb people. The drone over Minneapolis is a MQ-9 reaper, aka "predator B", hunter-killer UAV. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-9_Reaper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Atomics_MQ-9_Reaper "In 2006, the then–Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force General T. Michael Moseley said: "We've moved from using UAVs primarily in intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance roles before Operation Iraqi Freedom, to a true hunter-killer role with the Reaper."[6] The MQ-9 is a larger, heavier, and more capable aircraft than the earlier General Atomics MQ-1 Predator; it can be controlled by the same ground systems used to control MQ-1s. The Reaper has a 950-shaft-horsepower (712 kW) turboprop engine (compared to the Predator's 115 hp (86 kW) piston engine). The greater power allows the Reaper to carry 15 times more ordnance payload and cruise at about three times the speed of the MQ-1.[6] "

mattkrause 6y ago
It's obviously sinister and is a pretty good hint at the end goals, but "Hunter-Killer" is also the project name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Hunter-Killer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USAF_Hunter-Killer
- outworlder 6y ago
  > Hunter Killer So Skynet's schedule is coming back on track once again. https://terminator.fandom.com/wiki/HK-Aerial https://terminator.fandom.com/wiki/HK-Aerial
- 6y ago

chrismcb 6y ago

I think the difference is in cost (time and money) as well as stealth. A small drone is easily deployed and fairly unobtrusive. A helicopter takes a bit more time and I think it's more expensive. Plus it isn't exactly stealthy.

_jal 6y ago

Economics and automation. To look at a related question, where do you draw the line between stakeouts and planting GPS devices? The question should not be some sort of line-drawing based on looking at the narrow capabilities of a particular device or practice change. It needs to be a look at what those capabilities do to the current balance of civilian rights and responsibilities, and whether we wish to live in a world of robotic surveillance and law enforcement.

Alupis 6y ago

I think we first need to determine what is upsetting about this, specifically. Is it that they are flying a UAV that was originally designed for military use? Or is it that they are flying a UAV period? What if it was a new UAV, designed just for law enforcement? No problems then? Presumably this UAV has no weapons on it, so I'm unsure what the problem could be unless we just flat oppose former military equipment being used? It's safer and cheaper to fly a UAV than a manned vehicled - helicopters crash routinely and need multiple crews to keep them on station for extended duration. If it was a decommissioned military UAV that's being repurposed - then the tax payer has been saved a great deal of money as well. So, what specifically is it that we don't like about this situation?

NegativeLatency 6y ago
The military industrial police state
koheripbal 6y ago
I think you are expecting logical reasoning from a group of people who are acting emotionally. any form of government law enforcement personnel or equipment is drawing anger - regardless of form, function, or origin.
_jal 6y ago
As I said in another comment, the importance of the change doesn't lie in a narrow look at the changed component. It is formally about the overall balance of rights, responsibilities of citizens and police/military[1], and less formally about trust between the two and the overall climate we want to live in, as a country. If you make a given police enforcement mechanism cheaper, it will be used more. What does that do to your average person's sense of privacy/fear/trust? What kind of relationship do we want to have between citizens[2] and its government? [1] That line is being blurred. [2] Not subjects
- Alupis 6y ago
  I suppose, to that end, what about my rights to not be looted or have my car flipped over and set ablaze? I suppose in those situations, I'd be grateful for some law enforcement presence monitoring the situation and guiding folks on the ground to the most appropriate places needing the most attention.

natch 6y ago

I can’t speak for OP but a distinction with any drone is there is no crew being put in (physical) harm’s way. One significant consequence of that is it’s way easier to ramp up to a larger scale for whatever they might have in mind.