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US customs and border protection is flying a surveillance drone over Minneapolis

399 points by pera 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
joshmn 6y ago
Native Minnesotan here — living in Minneapolis — that has lived on both coasts: With all that's happening the last few days, please don't generally associate Minnesotans with the violent riots that have captured the attention of everyone. The peacefulness of the protests and gatherings has been overshadowed by the violence. There are countless examples of Minnesotans standing up to those who choose to loot and destroy the innocent. Those images are being overlooked. What happened is awful. These violent riots, and the violent images aren't reflective of Minnesotans at large. The violence doesn't reflect how genuinely upset people in Minnesota feel about what happened and greater the movement at large. There will always be edge-cases as there is with any situation in any context. But for everyone that I've known, for everyone I've met and encountered with in Minnesota, when I look back at my time spent on either coast I always have found the people in Minnesota to be most great. I have friends and colleagues asking me "what's going on with everyone in Minnesota?" and I have to explain to them that these images aren't representative of the place I call home and my neighbors I call my friends. There are businesses that didn't do anything wrong which have have been effectively `rm -rf` because of a small group of bad actors. The Target on Lake Street didn't do anything. Banadir Pharmacy didn't do anything. Seward Pharmacy didn't do anything. The pawn shop didn't do anything. The WIC office didn't do anything. The liquor stores didn't do anything. MoneyGram didn't do anything. The tobacco store didn't do anything. Disrupting those businesses and the livelihoods of their employees and owners doesn't prove a point. But burning down the precinct? Yeah, I can get behind that.
- mynameishere 6y ago
  Your last sentence contradicts the rest, but okay. At least you'll be paying for the nice, new police building.
- daeken 6y ago
  > With all that's happening the last few days, please don't associate Minnesotans with the riots that have captured the attention of everyone. I understand what you're going for, but this is a bad approach. People aren't rioting because they want to destroy things, they're rioting because they don't feel like they're being heard. What you're saying here reads as "don't listen to them, they don't represent us" which is ... exactly the point. We need to collectively shut the hell up for 5 minutes and just listen. Maybe if we actually did that, these riots wouldn't be happening.
  - dx87 6y ago
    > People aren't rioting because they want to destroy things, they're rioting because they don't feel like they're being heard. That's not why people are looting liquor stores and target. Some people are just destroying things, there's always those groups of people in every riot. Sometimes people even travel to the riot just for the chance at destroying things.
    - komali2 6y ago
      Word on the ground is target only started getting looted after it tried to close its doors to protestors looking to buy water and medical supplies.
      - golf3 6y ago
        Unlikely, were they on their way to church also?
        komali2 6y ago
        Who knows, but the protests were noore violent than when white militiamen stormed the statehouse two weeks ago.. and yet the cops shot tear gas plastic bullets into the crowd anyway.
        coryrc 6y ago
- eiji 6y ago
  Fwiw, they are trying to identify a provocateur involved in the start of the riots. https://twitter.com/keithellison/status/1266127105621983238?s=20 https://twitter.com/keithellison/status/1266127105621983238?...
  - joshmn 6y ago
    This is what I find most troubling. I don't mind if there's a disruption. But I do mind needlessly inciting chaos for the purpose of creating mayhem. We don't know this person, yet, but as AG Ellison said in his tweet he looks like he's just there to provoke. That's where the message gets lost.
    - geggam 6y ago
      > That's where the message gets lost. I think that message is loud and clear.
  - moduspol 6y ago
    An inside source tells me it was the Russians.
    - aksss 6y ago
      unnamed intelligence sources have said..
- user982 6y ago
  You think that others' views of Minnesota are worsened more by the riots than by the initial and continuing actions of Minneapolis police and authorities?
- coldpie 6y ago
  Indeed. The riots and destruction are an unfortunate byproduct of the outpouring of pent up rage and grief. They are a distraction from the real issue, which is the summary execution by the state of people in the street. The police are 100% responsible for all destruction that has occurred this week. If they had not executed a man in the street, none of this would have happened.
- pm90 6y ago
  Fellow HN user, I welcome you with warmth so please don't take what I say offensively, but as a different perspective. > What happened is awful. It doesn't reflect how genuinely kind people in Minnesota are and how we, collectively feel about what happened and the movement at large. There will always be edge-cases as there is with any situation in any context. But for everyone that I've known, for everyone I've met and encountered with in Minnesota, when I look back at my time spent on either coast I always have found the people in Minnesota to be great. Characterizing what is happening as an edge case is a huge mistake. People do not spontaneously start protesting with so much anger if it hasn't built up over so long. The police do not act with such impunity against citizens "just in this off case". It needs to be systemic for the reactions to be this strong. If you haven't experienced this personally, that's great! I will not question your experiences. But please understand that others have not had the same experience. They've had such a bad experience that they're willing to go out in the streets during a pandemic to say "enough is enough". The police have had enough experience to be well prepared with crowd control tools and to use them immediately on peaceful protestors, when they could have de-escalated. People don't burn down a building they consider a symbol of tyranny just because of a single incident; their experience so far has ingrained into them a deep hatred for the police who are meant to protect and serve them. As others in this thread have said, please try to listen to other perspectives. People experience different realities, and all of them can coexist without having to disprove the other.
  - mythrwy 6y ago
    The anger is justified. Protests are justified. Maybe even violent protests, if not justified, are understandable. Looting and burning unrelated businesses have no justification whatsoever.
    - evanlivingston 6y ago
      This comments reads as "god save capitalism. Everything is justified unless dollars are burned in the process."
      - mythrwy 6y ago
- detcader 6y ago
  Well if we can speak with such absolute certainty, I'll go next: there are dozens of undercover and rogue police officers involving themselves in escalating all the bad stuff
  - mythrwy 6y ago
    For what purpose?
    - testbot123 6y ago
      To justify violence against protestors and to sway public opinion against legitimate grievances with law enforcement.
    - jtr1 6y ago
      in the past, riots have strengthened public support for more armor, more weapons, bigger budgets, less oversight. But there are less calculating possibilities as well.
      - mythrwy 6y ago
        That. Or it could be a bullshit claim. I'm going to go with the more likely scenario here.
- thatcat 6y ago
  >edge-cases This is what happens when you dismiss edge cases in systems that are critical. Law isn't some shitty web app that can afford to just go offline.
- diob 6y ago
  I just want to point out that you're wrong to say these places "didn't do anything". Or rather, I would contend that they did do something, aka nothing, which is what led to this situation. "First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a 'more convenient season.'" - Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., 16 April 1963 I'm not advocating for violence or destruction, this result right now sucks to the nth degree. But I am advocating that folks start paying attention to kneeling football players and other peaceful protestors instead of telling them to shut the fuck up. Because you know what else sucks in addition to businesses burning? Folks dying for no other reason than the color of their skin. If you're asleep when it comes to human costs, but awake when it turns economical, take a look deep inside yourself. If you make peaceful revolution impossible, if you deny justice for too long, this is the result. Don't pretend that society at large "didn't do anything". By doing nothing, we all did a whole lot of something.
  - klmadfejno 6y ago
    That's a great quote, thanks for sharing that. Long, thoughtful, and almost certainly a real quotation for once. I think there's a strong naivety in liberal perspectives on non-violence. Liberal successes like the civil rights movement were finalized and won by non-violent leaders like MLK, and so he has been championed as a hero who represents the values that won the day. Students in school are taught that "the good guys" follow his approach. MLK is, without a doubt, a social hero to a very high degree. However, there's a HUGE other side to the civil rights movement. The state is incentivized to work with non-violent leaders because the alternative is credible threats of violence. When the bulk of the population thinks violence is never an option, your non violent offering loses its teeth. You don't need to advocate for violence. But if it happens, focus on the root cause and empathize with why people are driven to this.
- rsync 6y ago
  "With all that's happening the last few days, please don't associate Minnesotans with the riots that have captured the attention of everyone. The peacefulness of the protests and gatherings has been overshadowed by the violence. There are countless examples of Minnesotans standing up to those who choose to loot and destroy. Those images are being overlooked." MPLS homeowner here (although I no longer live there). I hear what you are saying and I am sympathetic to it - especially given my broad experience with all facets of Minnesotans all over the state. However this violence should reflect on Minnesotans, including my own many years of residence there. We failed to make investments in the built and the social infrastructure - including policing - that would have made it impossible for bad actors like this to carry a badge. It's very easy to look romantically at the Prairie Home Companion caricature of the Good Lutherans that quietly get the job done - and I wish that it were true. The fact is, we let I-35 drop into the river just like any other bunch of assholes.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  > But burning down the precinct? Yeah, I can get behind that How is this not glorifying violence? Replace "precinct" with "school" or "church" , makes it more obvious. .. especially since the precinct was still occupied when it was attacked.
  - aqme28 6y ago
    What does this analogy gain when you replace it with school or church? People didn't attack schools or churches, and schools and churches didn't employ the murderer in question.
  - remexre 6y ago
    I assume if a school or church had a decades-long history of unjustifiedly killing civilians in a discriminatory way, it would be shut down by the justice system. When the justice system itself has this dysfunction, however, that doesn't quite work.
  - knolax 6y ago
    If school teachers have been killing students without repercussion, I feel that it would be a lot more than just the school being burnt down.
- marcrosoft 6y ago
  > But burning down the precinct? Yeah, I can get behind that. Oof
- mnm1 6y ago
  The people rioting generally seem like decent people standing up for a just cause. So no, we won't judge all Minnesotans the same way. We will judge the people who set things up so that this is a common occurrence much more harshly. And that includes most Minnesotans. But don't worry. That includes most Americans. We'll judge them all for the shitty society they created where cops can beat and murder innocent people and get away with it. And we'll especially judge the cops, all of them, for murdering, stealing, assaulting, and supporting their fellow officers in the commission of such crimes. People are not innocent simply because they are nonviolent when they fully support the violence of police.
- Gabriel_Martin 6y ago
  Honestly, I only wish I could generally associate the people outraged rioting in the streets with the average Minnesotans, that would probably have prevented the culture that lead to where we are today. Maybe, for example if there were countless examples of Minnesotans standing up to racism and police brutality?
- fasteddie31003 6y ago
  Watching live streams from the protest informed me a lot about who these protesters are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZaOGehK6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZaOGehK6k . What surprised me is that they were mostly pretty young. They also looted a liquor store across from the police station and you can notice how everyone seemed to get drunker and drunker as the night went on. I think they are venting a lot of built-up frustration and honestly have a pretty good time doing it.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  Actually that Target on Lake St did quite a bit -Target's first dtop for deployment of new loss prevention techniques nationwide -Refused to sell milk (teargas aid) to protesters
condesising 6y ago
I see that there’s a plausible connection, but the phrase “predator drone“ is a bit of a loaded phrase. While Minneapolis is embroiled in riots, I think this article may be Stokes paranoia a little bit.
- pera 6y ago
  That's the actual name of the aircraft: https://www.ga-asi.com/predator-b https://www.ga-asi.com/predator-b
  - Rebelgecko 6y ago
    It's usually called the Reaper, to distinguish from the original Predator
    - dariusj18 6y ago
      That seems more sinister somehow.
      - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
        Reaper was designed to kill from the start.
- chasd00 6y ago
  iirc it's the equally poorly named Reaper drone that is armed and the one to be worried about. The predator drone is basically an R/C police helicopter. However, people have been freaked out about aerial surveillance for decades. It gets the clicks.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - pluto9 6y ago
    The MQ-9 Reaper is a larger counterpart to the MQ-1 Predator. They are both designed for military use, both capable of carrying weapons, and both appropriately named given their original intended purpose. They're also both airplanes. Neither of them resemble a helicopter in any way.
petee 6y ago
The tracking website has some great info, like this RC-26B with electronic surveillance hardware headed for Louisville: https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=adfd7f https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=adfd7f https://www.flickr.com/photos/eigjb/3460872978 https://www.flickr.com/photos/eigjb/3460872978 And this is the track of the drone over Minneapolis, which seemed to veer off around the time the story came out: https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae4bd7 https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae4bd7
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- ideals 6y ago
  Perhaps you or someone else knows, but I frequent the https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com website often and I see unusual tail numbers listed and I can't figure out why they are listed as such. They may not even be military aircraft but just small aircraft. The tail number in this example below is _AE0B60 and registration is n/a Here's an example screenshot of what I mean https://imgur.com/a/A1p4N2c https://imgur.com/a/A1p4N2c Does anyone what this is, or why they don't have 'normal' registration info on adsb?
  - arprocter 6y ago
    Those are hex codes - it seems to show that when it doesn't know the reg or an aircraft doesn't report one http://www.milradiocomms.com/search_mil_hexcodes.php?type_of_search=hex_search&search_hexcode=AE0B60 http://www.milradiocomms.com/search_mil_hexcodes.php?type_of...
  - jjwiseman 6y ago
    That's an ICAO/hex code. The transponder ping always includes that information, and then tar1090 tries to look it up in a database for other information, like the registration. If it can't find it in the database, then it just displays the code. Codes that begin with AE are military aircraft, which don't appear in any official (e.g. FAA) database. Enthusiasts have built somewhat ad hoc databases that include many, but not all of the military ICAOs.
king_magic 6y ago
I don't really see the issue here with a surveillance drone to help keep the peace. I don't really care if it's "military technology" or not. Look, what happened was absolutely awful. People have a right to protest - and should, but peacefully. Riots, looting, burning buildings? Sorry, that's going to far. If the government starts firing rockets at people from that drone - well that's another story. But that is clearly not what is happening here.
- petee 6y ago
  Well this is what we get for not listening. If your family and friends were being executed constantly you'd give up and rage too. Everyone has a breaking point - republicans were about to riot over wearing a mask to protect their families; these people are rioting over being murdered and ignored. Disproportionate and inconsistent application are also a huge issue here - where were the drones when domestic terrorists took over the statehouse? If this technology is only going to be used against black people, then yes, it an incredibly dangerous thing
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - king_magic 6y ago
    There are folks who are legitimately angry and are expressing that peacefully. And then there are people torching businesses, police stations and cars. Do you not think there is any sort of reasonable line being crossed here? I don't think it's fair to say it's inconsistent use when the domestic terrorists (yes, I agree with that portrayal) took over the statehouse. They were all in the statehouse, or in the immediate vicinity. How is a drone going to help in that situation? This is clearly a different situation with widespread rioting over a large geographic area. Edit: it's possible I have some of my facts wrong here - that's totally on me. But as much as I disagree with the GOP/COVID protesters - to their credit, they didn't start firebombing their local grocery store.
    - petee 6y ago
cheschire 6y ago
Am I correct in assuming this is actively recording footage that will be processed later to identify the paths of criminals? edit: Interesting, I left this post an hour ago and it was getting upvotes, now it's negative with no negative responses. I wish the down arrow only worked on posts you replied to first.
- coldpie 6y ago
  "Criminals," yes. Likely some form of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-IS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-IS
- dx87 6y ago
  I wouldn't be suprised. After the riots in Baltimore, a lot of people ended up getting arrested because they thought they police didn't care since they didn't stop the looting, but they just combed through footage afterward and arrested people in the following months.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  You are correct, and you should be more worried about pervasive surveillance than about the government taking your guns.
  - aksss 6y ago
    I'm not sure why the concern has to be mutually exclusive. The magic of "and" vs the tyranny of "or".
dpflan 6y ago
FTA: "Unarmed Predator drones were first used within the United States in 2012, when the Department of Homeland Security flew one over the property of a cattle farmer named Rodney Brossart to surveil him, and to help end a 16-hour standoff between him and another rancher over a stolen-cattle dispute. The use was highly controversial at the time; since then, CBP has used drones hundreds of times, and has not kept very good records about their use." That strikes me as a highly unexpected and odd situation to be the catalyst for "OK'ing" use within US.
- dpflan 6y ago
  Oh, interesting, here is the court case: > https://www.nacdl.org/getattachment/136371f4-aa38-476f-bd9a-a0908dbfd19b/Brossart-Order.pdf?lang=en-US https://www.nacdl.org/getattachment/136371f4-aa38-476f-bd9a-... On page 12: "There was no improper use of an unmanned aerial vehicle. It appears to have had no bearing on these charges being contested here."
- user982 6y ago
  Exceptional first cases pave precedent for unexceptional normalization.
  - dmix 6y ago
    This is why I'm looking forward to ~1 year from now to see who is getting 'fact checked' on Twitter. Only a fool would be evaluating the first case to judge whether the whole idea is valid.
    - SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
      No one can see past their own noses it seems.
      - t-writescode 6y ago
        (edit: Few like) the idea of letting any bad people go, even if it eventually means taking in a lot of innocent people
pm90 6y ago
This was very predictable. Tools invented for military operations abroad eventually, predictably find their way back domestically. Despite that, its a dangerous thing to happen. I am aware of how unlikely it is for the current US Government to use the drone offensively, but once you have a massive fleet of drones flying over the US, patrolling "troubling" neighborhoods constantly, the temptation to use those abilities rises significantly. I hope that Congress takes action to outlaw this practice, but I have little faith it will happen. It seems like everyday the country is falling further into the pit of becoming an authoritarian police state.
- beambot 6y ago
  Where do you draw the distinction between a drone (presumably unarmed) vs a police helicopter?
  - r00fus 6y ago
    Police helicopters don't have hellfire missiles as standard optional armament. Also police helicopters are operated by local/state forces. This is a federal agency which is way out of its jurisdiction.
    - stult 6y ago
      > Police helicopters don't have hellfire missiles as standard optional armament. I mean, they could. And firefighting planes could be rerigged to disperse chemical weapons, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them existing. >Also police helicopters are operated by local/state forces. This is a federal agency which is way out of its jurisdiction. I'm guessing it's on loan. It's hardly unusual or questionable for the feds to provide assistance to local police during periods of extraordinary crisis. However justified the people of Minneapolis may be in reacting this way to yet another police homicide, what else are the local police supposed to do now except try to restore order using whatever tools are available? Including drones that can provide immediate information about hotspots, crowds, fires, etc.
      - 6y ago
wafn 6y ago
Pretty sure there are laws against mass arson, looting, rioting, vandalism, etc. so if the people can't follow laws why should the government?
- aaomidi 6y ago
  Are you actually kidding me? Do you know who else decided to shoot rioters? Iran, Syria, China. Are you saying this is what we've come to? In that case, more power to these rioters to rid us of this disgusting state.
  - joering2 6y ago
    Its basically an opinion of so many people that 1776 was a nice and pleasant meeting between locals and British Government. The locals sat down and said: "sorry we do apologize but we do not want you here anymore; please kindly go". And then Brits responded: "sure! we spent centuries conquering the whole world, hundreds of thousands of our brothers and fathers died in the process, but since you so peaceful and ask so politely, we have no problems to give up on this vast land of minerals and opportunities, pack our belongings and sail home. See ya!". In reality the 1776 happen pretty much the same as you watch the riots today, other than they didn't have tear gas and there were no cellphones.
    - Simulacra 6y ago
      “When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.” -Attributed to Thomas Jefferson
    - BEEdwards 6y ago
      Nice retcon, but even in your peaceful retelling it's still lies. the locals sat down and said "we know you've made treaties with the natives to not expand anymore, but we want that land! So if you could get gone and let us get to our genocide we'd appreciate it." and the Brits responded" "sure..." Just a little different... High school history doesn't like to mention it was a battle between new and old aristocrats, but the whole slavery and 3/5ths of a person business and initial land owners only sort of system kind of shows the truth.
sschueller 6y ago
Can a TV news channel operate one as well?
- kube-system 6y ago
  The requirements for broadcast news are usually satisfied by much cheaper UAVs.
jefftk 6y ago
"The drone flown over Minneapolis is an unarmed version of the aircraft."
onetimemanytime 6y ago
Searching for contraband and illegal aliens no doubt https://www.cbp.gov/about https://www.cbp.gov/about
new_realist 6y ago
Surveillance of the police by the public is good, police body cams are good, but airborne public surveillance of everyone is bad? If so, why?
- mywittyname 6y ago
  People shouldn't be surveilled by the government without probable cause.
  - vecter 6y ago
    I'm 100% in favor of the protestors' cause, but if you want probable cause, burning down a police station, housing unit, and nearby businesses certainly qualifies.
    - mywittyname 6y ago
      And what about all the other people caught in the dragnet? Most of whom presumably did nothing. These people have no idea if they are also being surveilled. I mean, who knows what else the government is doing "while they're there." There are smaller aerial drones that could be used, which would capture the same relevant footage, without the potentially miles-wide dragnet. That's my main objection here: innocent people shouldn't have to give up their rights because the government can justify it. A good justice system would do their best get the minimum amount of information necessary, in order to protect the innocent.
- pornel 6y ago
  Imbalance of power. Body cams are meant make the police accountable to the people. Mass surveillance gives power to the government to track and squash dissent. It's the same reason we demand transparency from governments, and privacy for the people.
geggam 6y ago
At what point does this violate the Possee Comitatus ? From my perspective militarizing the police crossed the line some time ago
GekkePrutser 6y ago
I really respect ADS-B exchange choosing to not block anything like the commercial alternatives do. Those block anything military and many private jets etc from their views. Basically anyone who asks is excluded from view. Of course anyone with a $10 RTLSDR stick can see this info too but ADS-B exchange make it much more accessible.
blackrock 6y ago
Are they going to launch a hellfire missile on these innocent unarmed black Americans too? These people are poor, and are just afraid of getting killed and oppressed, by the predatory capitalistic and systemically racist American system.
zaroth 6y ago
This is almost quaint compared to what Persistent Surveillance Systems is doing over Baltimore right now. https://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2020/04/30/aerial-surveillance-planes-to-begin-flying-over.html https://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2020/04/30/aerial...
projectileboy 6y ago
It is always, always, always true that when something is sold as protecting you it actually exists to control you.
gok 6y ago
There's some insane shit happening in Minneapolis but using an unarmed drone to get a better picture of an unfolding riot doesn't seem...that weird?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

399 points by pera 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Native Minnesotan here — living in Minneapolis — that has lived on both coasts: With all that's happening the last few days, please don't generally associate Minnesotans with the violent riots that have captured the attention of everyone. The peacefulness of the protests and gatherings has been overshadowed by the violence. There are countless examples of Minnesotans standing up to those who choose to loot and destroy the innocent. Those images are being overlooked. What happened is awful. These violent riots, and the violent images aren't reflective of Minnesotans at large. The violence doesn't reflect how genuinely upset people in Minnesota feel about what happened and greater the movement at large. There will always be edge-cases as there is with any situation in any context. But for everyone that I've known, for everyone I've met and encountered with in Minnesota, when I look back at my time spent on either coast I always have found the people in Minnesota to be most great. I have friends and colleagues asking me "what's going on with everyone in Minnesota?" and I have to explain to them that these images aren't representative of the place I call home and my neighbors I call my friends. There are businesses that didn't do anything wrong which have have been effectively `rm -rf` because of a small group of bad actors. The Target on Lake Street didn't do anything. Banadir Pharmacy didn't do anything. Seward Pharmacy didn't do anything. The pawn shop didn't do anything. The WIC office didn't do anything. The liquor stores didn't do anything. MoneyGram didn't do anything. The tobacco store didn't do anything. Disrupting those businesses and the livelihoods of their employees and owners doesn't prove a point. But burning down the precinct? Yeah, I can get behind that.

mynameishere 6y ago
Your last sentence contradicts the rest, but okay. At least you'll be paying for the nice, new police building.
daeken 6y ago
> With all that's happening the last few days, please don't associate Minnesotans with the riots that have captured the attention of everyone. I understand what you're going for, but this is a bad approach. People aren't rioting because they want to destroy things, they're rioting because they don't feel like they're being heard. What you're saying here reads as "don't listen to them, they don't represent us" which is ... exactly the point. We need to collectively shut the hell up for 5 minutes and just listen. Maybe if we actually did that, these riots wouldn't be happening.
- dx87 6y ago
  > People aren't rioting because they want to destroy things, they're rioting because they don't feel like they're being heard. That's not why people are looting liquor stores and target. Some people are just destroying things, there's always those groups of people in every riot. Sometimes people even travel to the riot just for the chance at destroying things.
  - komali2 6y ago
    Word on the ground is target only started getting looted after it tried to close its doors to protestors looking to buy water and medical supplies.
    - golf3 6y ago
      Unlikely, were they on their way to church also?
      - komali2 6y ago
        Who knows, but the protests were noore violent than when white militiamen stormed the statehouse two weeks ago.. and yet the cops shot tear gas plastic bullets into the crowd anyway.
        coryrc 6y ago
eiji 6y ago
Fwiw, they are trying to identify a provocateur involved in the start of the riots. https://twitter.com/keithellison/status/1266127105621983238?s=20 https://twitter.com/keithellison/status/1266127105621983238?...
- joshmn 6y ago
  This is what I find most troubling. I don't mind if there's a disruption. But I do mind needlessly inciting chaos for the purpose of creating mayhem. We don't know this person, yet, but as AG Ellison said in his tweet he looks like he's just there to provoke. That's where the message gets lost.
  - geggam 6y ago
    > That's where the message gets lost. I think that message is loud and clear.
- moduspol 6y ago
  An inside source tells me it was the Russians.
  - aksss 6y ago
    unnamed intelligence sources have said..
user982 6y ago
You think that others' views of Minnesota are worsened more by the riots than by the initial and continuing actions of Minneapolis police and authorities?
coldpie 6y ago
Indeed. The riots and destruction are an unfortunate byproduct of the outpouring of pent up rage and grief. They are a distraction from the real issue, which is the summary execution by the state of people in the street. The police are 100% responsible for all destruction that has occurred this week. If they had not executed a man in the street, none of this would have happened.
pm90 6y ago
Fellow HN user, I welcome you with warmth so please don't take what I say offensively, but as a different perspective. > What happened is awful. It doesn't reflect how genuinely kind people in Minnesota are and how we, collectively feel about what happened and the movement at large. There will always be edge-cases as there is with any situation in any context. But for everyone that I've known, for everyone I've met and encountered with in Minnesota, when I look back at my time spent on either coast I always have found the people in Minnesota to be great. Characterizing what is happening as an edge case is a huge mistake. People do not spontaneously start protesting with so much anger if it hasn't built up over so long. The police do not act with such impunity against citizens "just in this off case". It needs to be systemic for the reactions to be this strong. If you haven't experienced this personally, that's great! I will not question your experiences. But please understand that others have not had the same experience. They've had such a bad experience that they're willing to go out in the streets during a pandemic to say "enough is enough". The police have had enough experience to be well prepared with crowd control tools and to use them immediately on peaceful protestors, when they could have de-escalated. People don't burn down a building they consider a symbol of tyranny just because of a single incident; their experience so far has ingrained into them a deep hatred for the police who are meant to protect and serve them. As others in this thread have said, please try to listen to other perspectives. People experience different realities, and all of them can coexist without having to disprove the other.
- mythrwy 6y ago
  The anger is justified. Protests are justified. Maybe even violent protests, if not justified, are understandable. Looting and burning unrelated businesses have no justification whatsoever.
  - evanlivingston 6y ago
    This comments reads as "god save capitalism. Everything is justified unless dollars are burned in the process."
    - mythrwy 6y ago
detcader 6y ago
Well if we can speak with such absolute certainty, I'll go next: there are dozens of undercover and rogue police officers involving themselves in escalating all the bad stuff
- mythrwy 6y ago
  For what purpose?
  - testbot123 6y ago
    To justify violence against protestors and to sway public opinion against legitimate grievances with law enforcement.
  - jtr1 6y ago
    in the past, riots have strengthened public support for more armor, more weapons, bigger budgets, less oversight. But there are less calculating possibilities as well.
    - mythrwy 6y ago
      That. Or it could be a bullshit claim. I'm going to go with the more likely scenario here.
thatcat 6y ago
>edge-cases This is what happens when you dismiss edge cases in systems that are critical. Law isn't some shitty web app that can afford to just go offline.
diob 6y ago
I just want to point out that you're wrong to say these places "didn't do anything". Or rather, I would contend that they did do something, aka nothing, which is what led to this situation. "First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a 'more convenient season.'" - Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., 16 April 1963 I'm not advocating for violence or destruction, this result right now sucks to the nth degree. But I am advocating that folks start paying attention to kneeling football players and other peaceful protestors instead of telling them to shut the fuck up. Because you know what else sucks in addition to businesses burning? Folks dying for no other reason than the color of their skin. If you're asleep when it comes to human costs, but awake when it turns economical, take a look deep inside yourself. If you make peaceful revolution impossible, if you deny justice for too long, this is the result. Don't pretend that society at large "didn't do anything". By doing nothing, we all did a whole lot of something.
- klmadfejno 6y ago
  That's a great quote, thanks for sharing that. Long, thoughtful, and almost certainly a real quotation for once. I think there's a strong naivety in liberal perspectives on non-violence. Liberal successes like the civil rights movement were finalized and won by non-violent leaders like MLK, and so he has been championed as a hero who represents the values that won the day. Students in school are taught that "the good guys" follow his approach. MLK is, without a doubt, a social hero to a very high degree. However, there's a HUGE other side to the civil rights movement. The state is incentivized to work with non-violent leaders because the alternative is credible threats of violence. When the bulk of the population thinks violence is never an option, your non violent offering loses its teeth. You don't need to advocate for violence. But if it happens, focus on the root cause and empathize with why people are driven to this.
rsync 6y ago
"With all that's happening the last few days, please don't associate Minnesotans with the riots that have captured the attention of everyone. The peacefulness of the protests and gatherings has been overshadowed by the violence. There are countless examples of Minnesotans standing up to those who choose to loot and destroy. Those images are being overlooked." MPLS homeowner here (although I no longer live there). I hear what you are saying and I am sympathetic to it - especially given my broad experience with all facets of Minnesotans all over the state. However this violence should reflect on Minnesotans, including my own many years of residence there. We failed to make investments in the built and the social infrastructure - including policing - that would have made it impossible for bad actors like this to carry a badge. It's very easy to look romantically at the Prairie Home Companion caricature of the Good Lutherans that quietly get the job done - and I wish that it were true. The fact is, we let I-35 drop into the river just like any other bunch of assholes.
koheripbal 6y ago
> But burning down the precinct? Yeah, I can get behind that How is this not glorifying violence? Replace "precinct" with "school" or "church" , makes it more obvious. .. especially since the precinct was still occupied when it was attacked.
- aqme28 6y ago
  What does this analogy gain when you replace it with school or church? People didn't attack schools or churches, and schools and churches didn't employ the murderer in question.
- remexre 6y ago
  I assume if a school or church had a decades-long history of unjustifiedly killing civilians in a discriminatory way, it would be shut down by the justice system. When the justice system itself has this dysfunction, however, that doesn't quite work.
- knolax 6y ago
  If school teachers have been killing students without repercussion, I feel that it would be a lot more than just the school being burnt down.
marcrosoft 6y ago
> But burning down the precinct? Yeah, I can get behind that. Oof
mnm1 6y ago
The people rioting generally seem like decent people standing up for a just cause. So no, we won't judge all Minnesotans the same way. We will judge the people who set things up so that this is a common occurrence much more harshly. And that includes most Minnesotans. But don't worry. That includes most Americans. We'll judge them all for the shitty society they created where cops can beat and murder innocent people and get away with it. And we'll especially judge the cops, all of them, for murdering, stealing, assaulting, and supporting their fellow officers in the commission of such crimes. People are not innocent simply because they are nonviolent when they fully support the violence of police.
Gabriel_Martin 6y ago
Honestly, I only wish I could generally associate the people outraged rioting in the streets with the average Minnesotans, that would probably have prevented the culture that lead to where we are today. Maybe, for example if there were countless examples of Minnesotans standing up to racism and police brutality?
fasteddie31003 6y ago
Watching live streams from the protest informed me a lot about who these protesters are https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZaOGehK6k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZaOGehK6k . What surprised me is that they were mostly pretty young. They also looted a liquor store across from the police station and you can notice how everyone seemed to get drunker and drunker as the night went on. I think they are venting a lot of built-up frustration and honestly have a pretty good time doing it.
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selimthegrim 6y ago
Actually that Target on Lake St did quite a bit -Target's first dtop for deployment of new loss prevention techniques nationwide -Refused to sell milk (teargas aid) to protesters

condesising 6y ago

I see that there’s a plausible connection, but the phrase “predator drone“ is a bit of a loaded phrase. While Minneapolis is embroiled in riots, I think this article may be Stokes paranoia a little bit.

pera 6y ago
That's the actual name of the aircraft: https://www.ga-asi.com/predator-b https://www.ga-asi.com/predator-b
- Rebelgecko 6y ago
  It's usually called the Reaper, to distinguish from the original Predator
  - dariusj18 6y ago
    That seems more sinister somehow.
    - kevin_thibedeau 6y ago
      Reaper was designed to kill from the start.
chasd00 6y ago
iirc it's the equally poorly named Reaper drone that is armed and the one to be worried about. The predator drone is basically an R/C police helicopter. However, people have been freaked out about aerial surveillance for decades. It gets the clicks.
- deleted 6y ago
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- pluto9 6y ago
  The MQ-9 Reaper is a larger counterpart to the MQ-1 Predator. They are both designed for military use, both capable of carrying weapons, and both appropriately named given their original intended purpose. They're also both airplanes. Neither of them resemble a helicopter in any way.

petee 6y ago

The tracking website has some great info, like this RC-26B with electronic surveillance hardware headed for Louisville: https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=adfd7f https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=adfd7f https://www.flickr.com/photos/eigjb/3460872978 https://www.flickr.com/photos/eigjb/3460872978 And this is the track of the drone over Minneapolis, which seemed to veer off around the time the story came out: https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae4bd7 https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com/?icao=ae4bd7

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ideals 6y ago
Perhaps you or someone else knows, but I frequent the https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com https://tar1090.adsbexchange.com website often and I see unusual tail numbers listed and I can't figure out why they are listed as such. They may not even be military aircraft but just small aircraft. The tail number in this example below is _AE0B60 and registration is n/a Here's an example screenshot of what I mean https://imgur.com/a/A1p4N2c https://imgur.com/a/A1p4N2c Does anyone what this is, or why they don't have 'normal' registration info on adsb?
- arprocter 6y ago
  Those are hex codes - it seems to show that when it doesn't know the reg or an aircraft doesn't report one http://www.milradiocomms.com/search_mil_hexcodes.php?type_of_search=hex_search&search_hexcode=AE0B60 http://www.milradiocomms.com/search_mil_hexcodes.php?type_of...
- jjwiseman 6y ago
  That's an ICAO/hex code. The transponder ping always includes that information, and then tar1090 tries to look it up in a database for other information, like the registration. If it can't find it in the database, then it just displays the code. Codes that begin with AE are military aircraft, which don't appear in any official (e.g. FAA) database. Enthusiasts have built somewhat ad hoc databases that include many, but not all of the military ICAOs.

king_magic 6y ago

I don't really see the issue here with a surveillance drone to help keep the peace. I don't really care if it's "military technology" or not. Look, what happened was absolutely awful. People have a right to protest - and should, but peacefully. Riots, looting, burning buildings? Sorry, that's going to far. If the government starts firing rockets at people from that drone - well that's another story. But that is clearly not what is happening here.

petee 6y ago
Well this is what we get for not listening. If your family and friends were being executed constantly you'd give up and rage too. Everyone has a breaking point - republicans were about to riot over wearing a mask to protect their families; these people are rioting over being murdered and ignored. Disproportionate and inconsistent application are also a huge issue here - where were the drones when domestic terrorists took over the statehouse? If this technology is only going to be used against black people, then yes, it an incredibly dangerous thing
- deleted 6y ago
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- king_magic 6y ago
  There are folks who are legitimately angry and are expressing that peacefully. And then there are people torching businesses, police stations and cars. Do you not think there is any sort of reasonable line being crossed here? I don't think it's fair to say it's inconsistent use when the domestic terrorists (yes, I agree with that portrayal) took over the statehouse. They were all in the statehouse, or in the immediate vicinity. How is a drone going to help in that situation? This is clearly a different situation with widespread rioting over a large geographic area. Edit: it's possible I have some of my facts wrong here - that's totally on me. But as much as I disagree with the GOP/COVID protesters - to their credit, they didn't start firebombing their local grocery store.
  - petee 6y ago

cheschire 6y ago

Am I correct in assuming this is actively recording footage that will be processed later to identify the paths of criminals? edit: Interesting, I left this post an hour ago and it was getting upvotes, now it's negative with no negative responses. I wish the down arrow only worked on posts you replied to first.

coldpie 6y ago
"Criminals," yes. Likely some form of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-IS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-IS
dx87 6y ago
I wouldn't be suprised. After the riots in Baltimore, a lot of people ended up getting arrested because they thought they police didn't care since they didn't stop the looting, but they just combed through footage afterward and arrested people in the following months.
HarryHirsch 6y ago
You are correct, and you should be more worried about pervasive surveillance than about the government taking your guns.
- aksss 6y ago
  I'm not sure why the concern has to be mutually exclusive. The magic of "and" vs the tyranny of "or".

dpflan 6y ago

FTA: "Unarmed Predator drones were first used within the United States in 2012, when the Department of Homeland Security flew one over the property of a cattle farmer named Rodney Brossart to surveil him, and to help end a 16-hour standoff between him and another rancher over a stolen-cattle dispute. The use was highly controversial at the time; since then, CBP has used drones hundreds of times, and has not kept very good records about their use." That strikes me as a highly unexpected and odd situation to be the catalyst for "OK'ing" use within US.

dpflan 6y ago
Oh, interesting, here is the court case: > https://www.nacdl.org/getattachment/136371f4-aa38-476f-bd9a-a0908dbfd19b/Brossart-Order.pdf?lang=en-US https://www.nacdl.org/getattachment/136371f4-aa38-476f-bd9a-... On page 12: "There was no improper use of an unmanned aerial vehicle. It appears to have had no bearing on these charges being contested here."
user982 6y ago
Exceptional first cases pave precedent for unexceptional normalization.
- dmix 6y ago
  This is why I'm looking forward to ~1 year from now to see who is getting 'fact checked' on Twitter. Only a fool would be evaluating the first case to judge whether the whole idea is valid.
  - SV_BubbleTime 6y ago
    No one can see past their own noses it seems.
    - t-writescode 6y ago
      (edit: Few like) the idea of letting any bad people go, even if it eventually means taking in a lot of innocent people

pm90 6y ago

This was very predictable. Tools invented for military operations abroad eventually, predictably find their way back domestically. Despite that, its a dangerous thing to happen. I am aware of how unlikely it is for the current US Government to use the drone offensively, but once you have a massive fleet of drones flying over the US, patrolling "troubling" neighborhoods constantly, the temptation to use those abilities rises significantly. I hope that Congress takes action to outlaw this practice, but I have little faith it will happen. It seems like everyday the country is falling further into the pit of becoming an authoritarian police state.

beambot 6y ago
Where do you draw the distinction between a drone (presumably unarmed) vs a police helicopter?
- r00fus 6y ago
  Police helicopters don't have hellfire missiles as standard optional armament. Also police helicopters are operated by local/state forces. This is a federal agency which is way out of its jurisdiction.
  - stult 6y ago
    > Police helicopters don't have hellfire missiles as standard optional armament. I mean, they could. And firefighting planes could be rerigged to disperse chemical weapons, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them existing. >Also police helicopters are operated by local/state forces. This is a federal agency which is way out of its jurisdiction. I'm guessing it's on loan. It's hardly unusual or questionable for the feds to provide assistance to local police during periods of extraordinary crisis. However justified the people of Minneapolis may be in reacting this way to yet another police homicide, what else are the local police supposed to do now except try to restore order using whatever tools are available? Including drones that can provide immediate information about hotspots, crowds, fires, etc.
    - 6y ago

wafn 6y ago

Pretty sure there are laws against mass arson, looting, rioting, vandalism, etc. so if the people can't follow laws why should the government?

aaomidi 6y ago
Are you actually kidding me? Do you know who else decided to shoot rioters? Iran, Syria, China. Are you saying this is what we've come to? In that case, more power to these rioters to rid us of this disgusting state.
- joering2 6y ago
  Its basically an opinion of so many people that 1776 was a nice and pleasant meeting between locals and British Government. The locals sat down and said: "sorry we do apologize but we do not want you here anymore; please kindly go". And then Brits responded: "sure! we spent centuries conquering the whole world, hundreds of thousands of our brothers and fathers died in the process, but since you so peaceful and ask so politely, we have no problems to give up on this vast land of minerals and opportunities, pack our belongings and sail home. See ya!". In reality the 1776 happen pretty much the same as you watch the riots today, other than they didn't have tear gas and there were no cellphones.
  - Simulacra 6y ago
    “When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.” -Attributed to Thomas Jefferson
  - BEEdwards 6y ago
    Nice retcon, but even in your peaceful retelling it's still lies. the locals sat down and said "we know you've made treaties with the natives to not expand anymore, but we want that land! So if you could get gone and let us get to our genocide we'd appreciate it." and the Brits responded" "sure..." Just a little different... High school history doesn't like to mention it was a battle between new and old aristocrats, but the whole slavery and 3/5ths of a person business and initial land owners only sort of system kind of shows the truth.

sschueller 6y ago

Can a TV news channel operate one as well?

kube-system 6y ago
The requirements for broadcast news are usually satisfied by much cheaper UAVs.

jefftk 6y ago

"The drone flown over Minneapolis is an unarmed version of the aircraft."

onetimemanytime 6y ago

Searching for contraband and illegal aliens no doubt https://www.cbp.gov/about https://www.cbp.gov/about

new_realist 6y ago

Surveillance of the police by the public is good, police body cams are good, but airborne public surveillance of everyone is bad? If so, why?

mywittyname 6y ago
People shouldn't be surveilled by the government without probable cause.
- vecter 6y ago
  I'm 100% in favor of the protestors' cause, but if you want probable cause, burning down a police station, housing unit, and nearby businesses certainly qualifies.
  - mywittyname 6y ago
    And what about all the other people caught in the dragnet? Most of whom presumably did nothing. These people have no idea if they are also being surveilled. I mean, who knows what else the government is doing "while they're there." There are smaller aerial drones that could be used, which would capture the same relevant footage, without the potentially miles-wide dragnet. That's my main objection here: innocent people shouldn't have to give up their rights because the government can justify it. A good justice system would do their best get the minimum amount of information necessary, in order to protect the innocent.
pornel 6y ago
Imbalance of power. Body cams are meant make the police accountable to the people. Mass surveillance gives power to the government to track and squash dissent. It's the same reason we demand transparency from governments, and privacy for the people.

geggam 6y ago

At what point does this violate the Possee Comitatus ? From my perspective militarizing the police crossed the line some time ago

GekkePrutser 6y ago

I really respect ADS-B exchange choosing to not block anything like the commercial alternatives do. Those block anything military and many private jets etc from their views. Basically anyone who asks is excluded from view. Of course anyone with a $10 RTLSDR stick can see this info too but ADS-B exchange make it much more accessible.

blackrock 6y ago

Are they going to launch a hellfire missile on these innocent unarmed black Americans too? These people are poor, and are just afraid of getting killed and oppressed, by the predatory capitalistic and systemically racist American system.

zaroth 6y ago

This is almost quaint compared to what Persistent Surveillance Systems is doing over Baltimore right now. https://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2020/04/30/aerial-surveillance-planes-to-begin-flying-over.html https://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2020/04/30/aerial...

projectileboy 6y ago

It is always, always, always true that when something is sold as protecting you it actually exists to control you.

gok 6y ago

There's some insane shit happening in Minneapolis but using an unarmed drone to get a better picture of an unfolding riot doesn't seem...that weird?

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