4 ms·

You seem to suggest "broken window policing" has to come with abuse of power. But it is in fact the abuse of power that breeds mistrust. The broken window theor

You seem to suggest "broken window policing" has to come with abuse of power. But it is in fact the abuse of power that breeds mistrust. The broken window theory itself seems quite sound to me - if you let small crimes slide without appropriate, lawful and proportionate response and punishment, it does indeed breed contempt for the law and does indeed lead to increases in more serious crimes. I think the same is true with upholding traffic laws, for example. My home province of Ontario loves to create rules that sound great (and sometimes overly strict) on paper, and then proceed to not enforce them, ever. Municipal police services have essentially given up on speeding unless it's truly outrageous, like 50kmh over. But what they fail to realize is the causal link between small offences and large ones. Hypocrisy about "small" offences breeds general contempt for rules of all kind.

mc32 6y ago
Indeed. Anyone who lived under Edward I. Koch’s mayorship would agree that the broken window theory has merit. As you say it also requires proportional response with the intention of steering behavior towards a better society rather than looking at it as purely “punishment”.
- vmception 6y ago
  > Anyone who lived under Edward I. Koch’s mayorship would agree that the broken window theory has merit. There are subsequent studies that suggest it didn't have as much merit as people imagined it did.
  - mc32 6y ago
    “Not as much” doesn’t mean no merit. Even empty storefronts with no broken windows, if they dominate, take out the spirit of a location. Cities could, if they have resources, lease and use them for community centered services to entice some form of vibrance.
    - vmception 6y ago
      Which is why I wrote not as much instead of no merit. Words.
    - Nasrudith 6y ago
      Crime dropped nationwide regardless of strategy and that they didn't show an extra drop as would be expected. That suggests it is at best useless or counterproductive.
      - mc32 6y ago
        So... as a kid when you see a broken window as opposed to a pristine one, which one do kids try to break? Do kids break into abandoned warehouses or occupied warehouses?
        vmception 6y ago
        The efforts were in vain and just marginalized a bunch of minorities like every other policing tactic, sorry you've spent so much of your life believing something else.
        mc32 6y ago
        As i I kid I hung out with kids on the periphery and kids who had it better. Maybe the group I knew was exceptional in that respect, but abandoned places were preferred targets as opposed to others.
thatcat 6y ago
Broken windows policing is an abuse of power because it takes resources that should be used on solving serious crimes and focuses on what is easy to enforce. This route is taken to extract money from the population and feed the police budget. There is no correlation between broken windows or speeding and rates of serious crime.
annoyingnoob 6y ago
Do you have examples of places where broken windows does not come with a big helping of abuse? Sure broken windows sounds reasonable. Show examples of where it has worked. Show example of how the poorest folks have benefited from broken windows policing. Your mind will change when you become the target. I'm not advocating for lawlessness. While obeying all laws I've been abused by police. I'm advocating for police that take time to understand a situation before they start busting heads. I'm advocating for police to follow the law too and not hide behind 'I smelled something', 'this person seemed suspicious', 'this person was resisting' - where all of that leads to my word against the word of a crooked cop who was trained to beat me up and then lie about the reasons why.
dec0dedab0de 6y ago
You seem to suggest "broken window policing" has to come with abuse of power. But it is in fact the abuse of power that breeds mistrust. It might work if we had a benevolent AI that could hand out tickets for minor offenses without giving any humans access to the surveillance network necessary to implement such a policy. In the real world we have humans self selecting for a job that requires violence, and then being kept in check by a global fraternity, that values protecting each other regardless of the circumstance.

mc32 6y ago

Indeed. Anyone who lived under Edward I. Koch’s mayorship would agree that the broken window theory has merit. As you say it also requires proportional response with the intention of steering behavior towards a better society rather than looking at it as purely “punishment”.

vmception 6y ago
> Anyone who lived under Edward I. Koch’s mayorship would agree that the broken window theory has merit. There are subsequent studies that suggest it didn't have as much merit as people imagined it did.
- mc32 6y ago
  “Not as much” doesn’t mean no merit. Even empty storefronts with no broken windows, if they dominate, take out the spirit of a location. Cities could, if they have resources, lease and use them for community centered services to entice some form of vibrance.
  - vmception 6y ago
    Which is why I wrote not as much instead of no merit. Words.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    Crime dropped nationwide regardless of strategy and that they didn't show an extra drop as would be expected. That suggests it is at best useless or counterproductive.
    - mc32 6y ago
      So... as a kid when you see a broken window as opposed to a pristine one, which one do kids try to break? Do kids break into abandoned warehouses or occupied warehouses?
      - vmception 6y ago
        The efforts were in vain and just marginalized a bunch of minorities like every other policing tactic, sorry you've spent so much of your life believing something else.
        mc32 6y ago
        As i I kid I hung out with kids on the periphery and kids who had it better. Maybe the group I knew was exceptional in that respect, but abandoned places were preferred targets as opposed to others.

thatcat 6y ago

Broken windows policing is an abuse of power because it takes resources that should be used on solving serious crimes and focuses on what is easy to enforce. This route is taken to extract money from the population and feed the police budget. There is no correlation between broken windows or speeding and rates of serious crime.

annoyingnoob 6y ago

Do you have examples of places where broken windows does not come with a big helping of abuse? Sure broken windows sounds reasonable. Show examples of where it has worked. Show example of how the poorest folks have benefited from broken windows policing. Your mind will change when you become the target. I'm not advocating for lawlessness. While obeying all laws I've been abused by police. I'm advocating for police that take time to understand a situation before they start busting heads. I'm advocating for police to follow the law too and not hide behind 'I smelled something', 'this person seemed suspicious', 'this person was resisting' - where all of that leads to my word against the word of a crooked cop who was trained to beat me up and then lie about the reasons why.

dec0dedab0de 6y ago

You seem to suggest "broken window policing" has to come with abuse of power. But it is in fact the abuse of power that breeds mistrust. It might work if we had a benevolent AI that could hand out tickets for minor offenses without giving any humans access to the surveillance network necessary to implement such a policy. In the real world we have humans self selecting for a job that requires violence, and then being kept in check by a global fraternity, that values protecting each other regardless of the circumstance.