4 ms·

How about recognizing Taiwan?

freetime2 6y ago
I think this is a great idea and would be 100% in favor of recognizing the people of Taiwan in their independence. Admittedly I am not a diplomat and don't know what the repercussions of that would be. Still.. it just feels like the right thing to do.
- ardy42 6y ago
  > I think this is a great idea and would be 100% in favor of recognizing the people of Taiwan in their independence. Admittedly I am not a diplomat and don't know what the repercussions of that would be. Still.. it just feels like the right thing to do. At a minimum the PRC would break of diplomatic relations (it refuses to have relations with any country that also recognizes Taiwan). However it would be interesting (and dangerous) to see what the PRC would do if the US or an un-ignorable block of countries like the EU broke the status-quo and recognized Taiwan. The PRC is far less isolated and self-sufficient than it was when major powers last officially recognized Taiwan.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Svip 6y ago
The tragedy of democracies is that it does not really encourage democracies elsewhere. As leaders of a democracy strive for high living standards within their own borders, wages and thus the cost of living goes up. But participants in a democracy (i.e. the voters) still wish to encourage their leaders for cheaper products. Be it bananas or electronics. In an isolated system, the consequence of such advances in social structures should be that the newer higher cost of living is the price one pays for a higher standard of living. But countries aren't isolated, and thus democratic leaders try to exploit less democratic countries for their own benefits, be it via covert action, foreign aid or other forms of diplomatic pressure. China, on the other hand, is one of the few (former, I should say) developing nations that have fought back, once they gained enough political power internationally. The Western world have become heavily reliant on China and its cheap production engine (to put it very simply), and China can thus force the same Western democracies to side with them on diplomatic issues closer to their home. Ask an American or a Frenchman how important to their livelihood Hong Kong's freedom or Taiwan's independence is, and they would probably rate it low among their list of priorities. Their cheap electronics come first. Does it matter to a Canadian shopkeeper whether Muslim minorities in China are treated humanely? Probably not as much as access to Chinese manufactured equipment. You may be quick to think our leaders are corrupted by the Chinese regime, but in reality, they are merely doing what their voters want them to do. Voters tend to be rather narrowly focused on what is in front of them, rather than wanting their government spent money and resources on someone else's freedom. Particularly if those regimes avoid directly attacking those democracies (see Pearl Harbor for an example of this mistake).
- mattmanser 6y ago
  You're confusing/conflating capitalism with democracy.
  - Svip 6y ago
    You can argue that democracy is merely an empty shell wherein to levy opinions. And in that context, I am talking about liberal capitalist democracies. But the voters themselves are capitalist, or rather don't have a problem with capitalism, hence why they don't vote leaders out that follow a capitalistic line. But I would not say I am conflating the two. The simple equation is that democracy does not foster democracy by itself. Capitalism in those democracies hinters that.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > they are merely doing what their voters want them to do they are merely doing what their lobbyists want them to do FTFY.
  - Svip 6y ago
    I too wish I could relief myself of any responsibility, and levy the blame entirely on the corrupt system, that I have little-to-no influence over. But the truth is, the people of any democracy are the true source of power. And if I asked you to join me in rising up against our current flawed political system, you'd probably hesitate as you are probably doing well enough to not wanting to rock the boat. I know this, because I am the same. I recognise that our systems are flawed, but I also recognise that I - as a voter - am partially to blame for this. And yet, I also feel comfortable enough to let and let live.
    - luckylion 6y ago
      > But the truth is, the people of any democracy are the true source of power. They may be the horses towing the cart, but they are not the driver. You are right that they won't want to revolt and potentially destroy the system because it's working "well enough" for them, but that's far from being the ones who decide the course of the nation.
robocat 6y ago
That would be a great solution if Taiwan offered citizenship to HK citizens or political refugees. Otherwise I don’t understand how that would help HK citizens.
- sswezey 6y ago
  I don't think Taiwan is in a position to offer citizenship to HKers. That would greatly draw the ire of China, which Taiwan is not equipped to handle.
  - goodcanadian 6y ago
    The United States has guaranteed the independence of Taiwan for decades. Taiwan doesn't have to handle China's ire on its own.
    - kelnos 6y ago
      My guess is that if China decided it wanted to unify Taiwan by force, the rest of the world -- including the US -- would stand by and allow them to do it.
    - LittlePeter 6y ago
      My guess is that if China decided it wanted to unify Taiwan by force, the US would not stand by and allow them to do it.
  - skissane 6y ago
    Under ROC law, all PRC nationals (including HKers) are ROC nationals. So Taiwan already technically recognises Hong Kong nationals as its citizens. However, ROC law distinguishes its nationals into two classes – those with legal residence (household registration) in the area under ROC government control (the "Free Territory"), and those without. ROC nationals without legal residence in government-controlled territory lack residence and political rights in Taiwan. However, they can apply to ROC government Immigration Department to immigrate to Taiwan, and if approved, can then apply for full permanent residence and political rights after a period of temporary residence in Taiwan.
jariel 6y ago
I think the issue is realpolitick. For now, Taiwan is free. And 'recognizing Taiwan' might trigger an invasion.
billfruit 6y ago
Yes but do the KMT want it recognised as 'Taiwan'?
billfruit 6y ago
A more nuanced view of the topic: "Taiwanese politics is full of complex subtleties that not every news report can include. But if reporting on the COVID-19 pandemic has taught us anything, it is that accuracy matters. A simple change, describing Tsai and the DPP as “pro-status quo” instead of “pro-independence,” gives readers a more accurate and nuanced account of Taiwan’s reality." https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/no-taiwans-president-isnt-pro-independence/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/no-taiwans-president-isnt-pr...

I think this is a great idea and would be 100% in favor of recognizing the people of Taiwan in their independence. Admittedly I am not a diplomat and don't know what the repercussions of that would be. Still.. it just feels like the right thing to do.

ardy42 6y ago
> I think this is a great idea and would be 100% in favor of recognizing the people of Taiwan in their independence. Admittedly I am not a diplomat and don't know what the repercussions of that would be. Still.. it just feels like the right thing to do. At a minimum the PRC would break of diplomatic relations (it refuses to have relations with any country that also recognizes Taiwan). However it would be interesting (and dangerous) to see what the PRC would do if the US or an un-ignorable block of countries like the EU broke the status-quo and recognized Taiwan. The PRC is far less isolated and self-sufficient than it was when major powers last officially recognized Taiwan.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Svip 6y ago

The tragedy of democracies is that it does not really encourage democracies elsewhere. As leaders of a democracy strive for high living standards within their own borders, wages and thus the cost of living goes up. But participants in a democracy (i.e. the voters) still wish to encourage their leaders for cheaper products. Be it bananas or electronics. In an isolated system, the consequence of such advances in social structures should be that the newer higher cost of living is the price one pays for a higher standard of living. But countries aren't isolated, and thus democratic leaders try to exploit less democratic countries for their own benefits, be it via covert action, foreign aid or other forms of diplomatic pressure. China, on the other hand, is one of the few (former, I should say) developing nations that have fought back, once they gained enough political power internationally. The Western world have become heavily reliant on China and its cheap production engine (to put it very simply), and China can thus force the same Western democracies to side with them on diplomatic issues closer to their home. Ask an American or a Frenchman how important to their livelihood Hong Kong's freedom or Taiwan's independence is, and they would probably rate it low among their list of priorities. Their cheap electronics come first. Does it matter to a Canadian shopkeeper whether Muslim minorities in China are treated humanely? Probably not as much as access to Chinese manufactured equipment. You may be quick to think our leaders are corrupted by the Chinese regime, but in reality, they are merely doing what their voters want them to do. Voters tend to be rather narrowly focused on what is in front of them, rather than wanting their government spent money and resources on someone else's freedom. Particularly if those regimes avoid directly attacking those democracies (see Pearl Harbor for an example of this mistake).

mattmanser 6y ago
You're confusing/conflating capitalism with democracy.
- Svip 6y ago
  You can argue that democracy is merely an empty shell wherein to levy opinions. And in that context, I am talking about liberal capitalist democracies. But the voters themselves are capitalist, or rather don't have a problem with capitalism, hence why they don't vote leaders out that follow a capitalistic line. But I would not say I am conflating the two. The simple equation is that democracy does not foster democracy by itself. Capitalism in those democracies hinters that.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> they are merely doing what their voters want them to do they are merely doing what their lobbyists want them to do FTFY.
- Svip 6y ago
  I too wish I could relief myself of any responsibility, and levy the blame entirely on the corrupt system, that I have little-to-no influence over. But the truth is, the people of any democracy are the true source of power. And if I asked you to join me in rising up against our current flawed political system, you'd probably hesitate as you are probably doing well enough to not wanting to rock the boat. I know this, because I am the same. I recognise that our systems are flawed, but I also recognise that I - as a voter - am partially to blame for this. And yet, I also feel comfortable enough to let and let live.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > But the truth is, the people of any democracy are the true source of power. They may be the horses towing the cart, but they are not the driver. You are right that they won't want to revolt and potentially destroy the system because it's working "well enough" for them, but that's far from being the ones who decide the course of the nation.

robocat 6y ago

That would be a great solution if Taiwan offered citizenship to HK citizens or political refugees. Otherwise I don’t understand how that would help HK citizens.

sswezey 6y ago
I don't think Taiwan is in a position to offer citizenship to HKers. That would greatly draw the ire of China, which Taiwan is not equipped to handle.
- goodcanadian 6y ago
  The United States has guaranteed the independence of Taiwan for decades. Taiwan doesn't have to handle China's ire on its own.
  - kelnos 6y ago
    My guess is that if China decided it wanted to unify Taiwan by force, the rest of the world -- including the US -- would stand by and allow them to do it.
  - LittlePeter 6y ago
    My guess is that if China decided it wanted to unify Taiwan by force, the US would not stand by and allow them to do it.
- skissane 6y ago
  Under ROC law, all PRC nationals (including HKers) are ROC nationals. So Taiwan already technically recognises Hong Kong nationals as its citizens. However, ROC law distinguishes its nationals into two classes – those with legal residence (household registration) in the area under ROC government control (the "Free Territory"), and those without. ROC nationals without legal residence in government-controlled territory lack residence and political rights in Taiwan. However, they can apply to ROC government Immigration Department to immigrate to Taiwan, and if approved, can then apply for full permanent residence and political rights after a period of temporary residence in Taiwan.

jariel 6y ago

I think the issue is realpolitick. For now, Taiwan is free. And 'recognizing Taiwan' might trigger an invasion.

billfruit 6y ago

Yes but do the KMT want it recognised as 'Taiwan'?

billfruit 6y ago

A more nuanced view of the topic: "Taiwanese politics is full of complex subtleties that not every news report can include. But if reporting on the COVID-19 pandemic has taught us anything, it is that accuracy matters. A simple change, describing Tsai and the DPP as “pro-status quo” instead of “pro-independence,” gives readers a more accurate and nuanced account of Taiwan’s reality." https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/no-taiwans-president-isnt-pro-independence/ https://thediplomat.com/2020/04/no-taiwans-president-isnt-pr...