7 ms·

From the first post in the series: > We now use the so called equal temperament system... Unless I'm playing a piano, no, I don't. And since I have an electri

From the first post in the series: > We now use the so called equal temperament system... Unless I'm playing a piano, no, I don't. And since I have an electric piano, I have been known to set it to meantone, but I accept that I'm a freak. Even on a guitar you have a fair amount of variation in pitch based on pressure and position of the left hand fingers relative to the fret. Not as much as on old instruments with gut frets, but it's there.

viraptor 6y ago
But given the frets are placed to divide the length of the string in a specific place, you're aiming to play equal temperament, right? You're using that system on a typical guitar, even if the sounds don't match exactly. Of course it's not going to be perfect, but it's still closer to 12TET-with-noise than some specific mediaeval tuning.
- Tade0 6y ago
  Yes and no. Those who play electric guitars with distortion prefer to approach Just Intonation(for a given key) as it doesn't have so much intermodulation. There is an attempt to tune guitars close to equal temperament trademarked as True Temperament: https://www.truetemperament.com/faq/ https://www.truetemperament.com/faq/ I for one am happy when my 12th and 24th frets are in tune. Solos sound off and weak if these two don't hold.
  - japanoise 6y ago
    To use computing slang to talk about music: this is just ricing. At best you'll sound out of tune with the rest of the band, at worst you'll run into wolf intervals and other issues with just intonation. This touches on the biggest reason we stick with 12-tone equal temparament in the West: social reasons. Having a standard means we can play together, in groups or at jams, without having to negotiate which tuning system we use (an argument most working musicians I've met see as utter wank and a waste of time).
    - sk0g 6y ago
      Is ricing a computer term? Thought it was a (funny|racist) reference to JDM cars and how engrossing a hobby tweaking those cars can be.
      - Tade0 6y ago
        I only ever heard this as a car culture term.
      - byproxy 6y ago
        Yea, it definitely has racist undertones related to import tuners. "Rice" implying "asian." I find it a bit uncomfortable to read people posting their customized Linux desktops, for example, and calling them "riced out."
      - japanoise 6y ago
        Maybe I'm showing my power level a bit here. To me it means "tweaking something's aesthetics in a way that doesn't improve, perhaps even degrades, performance".
- sampo 6y ago
  There are guitars with weirdly shaped frets, if you really want to approach true temperament. https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-659a2269b3cf8608d61d56844fc64424 https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-659a2269b3cf8608d61d56...
- madhadron 6y ago
  I wouldn't say that you aim to play equal temperament. More that it's the base structure you deviate from. I think my real point is that on most instruments you don't play only twelve tones. You play a whole lot more that get grouped into twelve groups.
nicetryguy 6y ago
I still think its fair to say we use the equal temperment system. It is a widely accepted standard. You're right, fret pressure alone can absolutely raise the pitch 5/10 cents, my Gibson SG has some deep frets and can do double that. I am surprised with all of the technology and VSTs we have now no one really uses self adjusting Just intonation or challenges A 440. Musical / mathematical / technical ability are a rare trinary intersection. It saddens me that no one is really trying to push the envelope of acoustic instruments or even new ways of producting digital sound. It's the same old Square and Saw waves with the same instruments we have had for hundreds of years. Sadly i think musicianship has all but died in Gen Z, quantization / pitch correction / take splicing / overuse of compression are rampant, and every popular artist is basically as fake as Milli Vanilli. Protools has raised a generation of lazy and uncreative musicians with awful rhythm. Get off my lawn! Ok i'm done.
- mping 6y ago
  Check Jacob Collier if you haven't already. He is really pushing it, he has a song where he changes the temperament during the song (sorry if this imprecise/wrong). He is kinda like a musical prodigy. Not my cup of tea but I do recognize he is very refreshing.
  - ageitgey 6y ago
    Jacob Collier has tricks like using how many cents out of tune certain chords are in equal temperament from just intonation to find a sequence of chords that modulate to a half-sharp key without it ever sounding out of tune: https://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2019/jacob-colliers-four-magical-chords/ https://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2019/jacob-colliers-four-magica... That's just the beginning. He posts long breakdowns of his tracks on YouTube explaining everything he does in detail. He's not only a musical virtuoso, but he's incredibly adept at recording and Apple's Logic/tech in general, so he's able to blend those skills seamlessly. With Jacob and others getting people interested in tunings and unusual harmony, there are now lots of people on YouTube creating music that exploits shifting tunings or alternate systems like 24TET, etc. So to the grandparent post, don't worry - there has never been a time when so many young people are playing with and exploiting tuning systems to create interesting music.
parenthesis 6y ago
> Unless I'm playing a piano ... Actually, the way a piano is tuned is pretty funky. The rigidity of the strings means the higher 'harmonics' of a note get sharper and sharper. If you tune the fundamentals to exact equal temperament a piano sounds out of tune, because the upper partials of lower notes are pretty sharp versus the lower partials of higher notes. Hence the frequences of the fundamentals are stretched out such as to get the inharmonic partials as in tune sounding as possible between different notes. This is why you hire a piano tuner to tune your piano.
- im3w1l 6y ago
  > This is why you hire a piano tuner to tune your piano. Idk... I think it's more about the hassle. People I've known let their piano get really out of tune (like we are talking a quarter tone off for some tones "just avoid those"), to the point where their own amateurish tuning would be a big improvement, before they call the tuner over.
- acomjean 6y ago
  Pianos are weird. The lowest notes, generally have one string that makes the note. The middle, have two strings (persumably to make it louder). the high notes have 3 strings per note. So sometimes playing one key is actually playing three tones. Pictures from a violin/piano maintenance building school make it a little clearer: https://www.nbss.edu/full-time-programs/piano-technology/curriculum https://www.nbss.edu/full-time-programs/piano-technology/cur...
- madhadron 6y ago
  > This is why you hire a piano tuner to tune your piano. I have an electric, but, yeah, point taken. And half the time I have it set as a harpsichord anyway.
mikorym 6y ago
I thought you were going to say you a violinist—that's the best example of perfect 4ths and 5ths that you can integrate with a band or orchestra that may include a normal 440 Hz A piano with equal temperament based on sqrt(2,12).
- madhadron 6y ago
  I am a violinist. :) That's my primary instrument. But even there you don't tune to perfects fifths all the time. In string quartets you tune the bottom C of the cello up a bit and the E's of the violins down a bit. But if you're playing with a piano in, say, a piano quintet, you generally play equal temperament with the piano.
analog31 6y ago
Sometimes the viola da gamba is set up with double frets to handle playing in multiple keys without retuning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VpxeGb3qZA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VpxeGb3qZA
- madhadron 6y ago
  Interesting. I never had a problem with adjusting my pitch on the viol when I was playing that, even with single frets.

viraptor 6y ago

But given the frets are placed to divide the length of the string in a specific place, you're aiming to play equal temperament, right? You're using that system on a typical guitar, even if the sounds don't match exactly. Of course it's not going to be perfect, but it's still closer to 12TET-with-noise than some specific mediaeval tuning.

Tade0 6y ago
Yes and no. Those who play electric guitars with distortion prefer to approach Just Intonation(for a given key) as it doesn't have so much intermodulation. There is an attempt to tune guitars close to equal temperament trademarked as True Temperament: https://www.truetemperament.com/faq/ https://www.truetemperament.com/faq/ I for one am happy when my 12th and 24th frets are in tune. Solos sound off and weak if these two don't hold.
- japanoise 6y ago
  To use computing slang to talk about music: this is just ricing. At best you'll sound out of tune with the rest of the band, at worst you'll run into wolf intervals and other issues with just intonation. This touches on the biggest reason we stick with 12-tone equal temparament in the West: social reasons. Having a standard means we can play together, in groups or at jams, without having to negotiate which tuning system we use (an argument most working musicians I've met see as utter wank and a waste of time).
  - sk0g 6y ago
    Is ricing a computer term? Thought it was a (funny|racist) reference to JDM cars and how engrossing a hobby tweaking those cars can be.
    - Tade0 6y ago
      I only ever heard this as a car culture term.
    - byproxy 6y ago
      Yea, it definitely has racist undertones related to import tuners. "Rice" implying "asian." I find it a bit uncomfortable to read people posting their customized Linux desktops, for example, and calling them "riced out."
    - japanoise 6y ago
      Maybe I'm showing my power level a bit here. To me it means "tweaking something's aesthetics in a way that doesn't improve, perhaps even degrades, performance".
sampo 6y ago
There are guitars with weirdly shaped frets, if you really want to approach true temperament. https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-659a2269b3cf8608d61d56844fc64424 https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-659a2269b3cf8608d61d56...
madhadron 6y ago
I wouldn't say that you aim to play equal temperament. More that it's the base structure you deviate from. I think my real point is that on most instruments you don't play only twelve tones. You play a whole lot more that get grouped into twelve groups.

nicetryguy 6y ago

I still think its fair to say we use the equal temperment system. It is a widely accepted standard. You're right, fret pressure alone can absolutely raise the pitch 5/10 cents, my Gibson SG has some deep frets and can do double that. I am surprised with all of the technology and VSTs we have now no one really uses self adjusting Just intonation or challenges A 440. Musical / mathematical / technical ability are a rare trinary intersection. It saddens me that no one is really trying to push the envelope of acoustic instruments or even new ways of producting digital sound. It's the same old Square and Saw waves with the same instruments we have had for hundreds of years. Sadly i think musicianship has all but died in Gen Z, quantization / pitch correction / take splicing / overuse of compression are rampant, and every popular artist is basically as fake as Milli Vanilli. Protools has raised a generation of lazy and uncreative musicians with awful rhythm. Get off my lawn! Ok i'm done.

mping 6y ago
Check Jacob Collier if you haven't already. He is really pushing it, he has a song where he changes the temperament during the song (sorry if this imprecise/wrong). He is kinda like a musical prodigy. Not my cup of tea but I do recognize he is very refreshing.
- ageitgey 6y ago
  Jacob Collier has tricks like using how many cents out of tune certain chords are in equal temperament from just intonation to find a sequence of chords that modulate to a half-sharp key without it ever sounding out of tune: https://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2019/jacob-colliers-four-magical-chords/ https://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2019/jacob-colliers-four-magica... That's just the beginning. He posts long breakdowns of his tracks on YouTube explaining everything he does in detail. He's not only a musical virtuoso, but he's incredibly adept at recording and Apple's Logic/tech in general, so he's able to blend those skills seamlessly. With Jacob and others getting people interested in tunings and unusual harmony, there are now lots of people on YouTube creating music that exploits shifting tunings or alternate systems like 24TET, etc. So to the grandparent post, don't worry - there has never been a time when so many young people are playing with and exploiting tuning systems to create interesting music.

parenthesis 6y ago

> Unless I'm playing a piano ... Actually, the way a piano is tuned is pretty funky. The rigidity of the strings means the higher 'harmonics' of a note get sharper and sharper. If you tune the fundamentals to exact equal temperament a piano sounds out of tune, because the upper partials of lower notes are pretty sharp versus the lower partials of higher notes. Hence the frequences of the fundamentals are stretched out such as to get the inharmonic partials as in tune sounding as possible between different notes. This is why you hire a piano tuner to tune your piano.

im3w1l 6y ago
> This is why you hire a piano tuner to tune your piano. Idk... I think it's more about the hassle. People I've known let their piano get really out of tune (like we are talking a quarter tone off for some tones "just avoid those"), to the point where their own amateurish tuning would be a big improvement, before they call the tuner over.
acomjean 6y ago
Pianos are weird. The lowest notes, generally have one string that makes the note. The middle, have two strings (persumably to make it louder). the high notes have 3 strings per note. So sometimes playing one key is actually playing three tones. Pictures from a violin/piano maintenance building school make it a little clearer: https://www.nbss.edu/full-time-programs/piano-technology/curriculum https://www.nbss.edu/full-time-programs/piano-technology/cur...
madhadron 6y ago
> This is why you hire a piano tuner to tune your piano. I have an electric, but, yeah, point taken. And half the time I have it set as a harpsichord anyway.

mikorym 6y ago

I thought you were going to say you a violinist—that's the best example of perfect 4ths and 5ths that you can integrate with a band or orchestra that may include a normal 440 Hz A piano with equal temperament based on sqrt(2,12).

madhadron 6y ago
I am a violinist. :) That's my primary instrument. But even there you don't tune to perfects fifths all the time. In string quartets you tune the bottom C of the cello up a bit and the E's of the violins down a bit. But if you're playing with a piano in, say, a piano quintet, you generally play equal temperament with the piano.

analog31 6y ago

Sometimes the viola da gamba is set up with double frets to handle playing in multiple keys without retuning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VpxeGb3qZA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VpxeGb3qZA

madhadron 6y ago
Interesting. I never had a problem with adjusting my pitch on the viol when I was playing that, even with single frets.