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> Now, you can either hire someone from San Francisco and subsidize their obscene rent, or you can hire someone from Omaha. You can get the same work done, but

> Now, you can either hire someone from San Francisco and subsidize their obscene rent, or you can hire someone from Omaha. You can get the same work done, but cheaper. What would you choose? This depends on the assumption that there's a big supply of workers in Omaha that are able to step in and do the job. I'm an outsider, but I'd guess that the people worth $600,000 Facebook salaries are already living there and working for Facebook. And then there's the question of whether those jobs are the ones that can be done remote as well as in a specific location. You have to ask why, if there were such big savings on the table, these companies hadn't already moved in this direction. I don't think it's as clear-cut as many are making this out to be.

imsofuture 6y ago
> I'm an outsider, but I'd guess that the people worth $600,000 Facebook salaries are already living there. Myopic
protonimitate 6y ago
Yup, all these op-eds reek of FUD. I also think people are overestimating the impact that FAANG going full remote will have on the tech world. I know that they're trend setters, but a lot of companies have already been operating full remote/remote friendly and offering perfectly fine wages. I really only see net-positive from this cultural shift. Frankly its obscene that location matters more than talent currently.
jasondigitized 6y ago
Within software at least, there are simply more people that have significant 'clock time' working within well run software companies in San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, etc. It's no different than college football players that spend their four years in well run systems that run pro style offenses. Sure, there may be a kid that has insane athletic ability that is playing at Calhoun Community College, but someone like Jerry Juedy ( wide receiver for Alabama ) is the player that the Denver Broncos will choose if they can get him. There simply aren't as many well run software companies in Omaha as there are in Seattle. And one could argue that the best free agents are going to be the ones coming out of those cities who can command higher market rates because companies believe there is higher ROI.
- fnbr 6y ago
  Yes, exactly. I've learned much more in the last two years working at a big tech co than I did at a small software company in the midwest, making me a much stronger engineer.
LeifCarrotson 6y ago
I've traveled to a lot of customer sites throughout the Midwest and to a couple dozen of their offshore plants in Mexico and China. Some of those customers are giant automotive OEMs and Tier 1 manufacturers with brand new glassy R&D labs with brand name equipment and Ivy League engineers making salaries well into the 6 figures. But some are tiny, self-taught, rural mom-and-pop outfits working from their garage with used equipment who might make more money as a line worker in the former shops. One critical thing to I've really come to experience in my travels is that all humans are basically the same. Those Ivy League engineers are no more intelligent or hard-working or creative than the guy in his garage or the site engineer from the Mexican or Chinese state university, instead it's often the opposite. If they're able to use the people, tools, and budget their position affords them, they can be more productive, but on the spot without those aids if anything they're less productive. The only differences are social connections, credentials, resources, the value multiplier from the volume that goes through their business, and the fraction of that value they're able to extract. The former three factors stack up against the engineer from Omaha. The last two mean that Facebook or Ford can easily afford those higher salaries while the Omaha garage cannot.
fnbr 6y ago
> I'd guess that the people worth $600,000 Facebook salaries are already living there and working for Facebook. Yes! I think this is true. However, the more interesting development to me is what happens 10 years from now. The engineers who are making $600k in SF are typically 10 years into their career (if not more). This is the biggest knock against expanding into places like Omaha- there's plenty of entry-level talent, but little, if any, mid-level to senior talent. In Edmonton (Canada), where I'm from, there's an awesome university that graduates tons of CS grads who immediately head to the Bay Area, because they can make 4x more there. As such, most of the work in town isn't sophisticated- there's lots of web development shops, but not many jobs doing sophisticated engineering at the level of, say, Facebook or Google. As a result, you're right, there's not many people who could get a $600k offer from Facebook. But! If these companies start supporting remote work, we could see tech ecosystems developing, and we could see new grads staying in these places, and building ecosystems around them. To answer your question about: "why, if there were such big savings on the table, these companies hadn't already moved in this direction." I think the answer is as follows: 1. New grads need more experienced talent to help mentor them and ensure that they're seen as productive. 2. All of the companies' offices have historically been in certain locations, so we either need to a) have the new grads move to somewhere we have experienced talent, or b) need to have experienced people move to where the new grads are. We see both of these- companies regularly will start new offices once they can get sufficiently experienced people to move there, but only when they can get that. This is the main reason (aiui) why many of the large tech cos in the Bay Area are concentrated in the Bay- there are no senior level people who are interested/willing to move.
a_imho 6y ago
Big IT does not care, they make bank despite bleeding stupid money. Reorg after reorg, projects canceled left and right, expensive consultants onboard not pulling their weight, cloud costs through the roof, the list goes on and on and on. Before covid most companies were hiring like crazy, it is not either/or, they want all those workers, both the people in SF and in Omaha too.
koheripbal 6y ago
Coincidentally, I am from Omaha, and moved to San Francisco for IT work. If I could move back, even for lower pay, I would - to be closer to family. Granted, I am just one data point, but it's hard to imagine I am alone...
- ishjoh 6y ago
  I left New York to move and be closer to family about 4 years ago. The local market does not pay well for software developers, but I've managed to find steady contracting work and with the lower cost of living have been saving more money. If you can find decision-makers and demonstrate quality work to them, and start planting the seeds that you would be available for contracting, there is a good chance you can make your move back to Omaha within a year.
thrwy_salary 6y ago
just as a counter point, and using a throwaway because I don't want to leak net worth stuff. I'm in a flyover state (started in SoCal, not remote). Not a FAANG. Base salary is 200k and I have about $200k per year in RSU, not to mention the IPO that gave me about $1M. I'm a distributed systems developer working on multi-tenant systems for hundreds of thousands of paying customers doing multiple billions of calls from customers that multiplex into larger internal load on our DCs. I've grown with a company from a couple dozen employees to thousands. Through IPOs and acquisitions (from both sides). This gives me some more perspective on working in different sized orgs with long time scales and a deep understanding of operations and maintaining software while switching out legacy code for new code (the proverbial changing out wings on a plane in flight). I'm sure there is not a big supply of folks like me anywhere, and most of us are probably doing work at FAANGs and such. Truth is, FAANGs can't afford me because I'm not jumping ship for anything less than full time remote with good people on a product I think is worthwhile for anything under $600k/yr. I'd actually like to start something around edtech, so maybe I'll look into that if I lose my golden gig.

imsofuture 6y ago

> I'm an outsider, but I'd guess that the people worth $600,000 Facebook salaries are already living there. Myopic

protonimitate 6y ago

Yup, all these op-eds reek of FUD. I also think people are overestimating the impact that FAANG going full remote will have on the tech world. I know that they're trend setters, but a lot of companies have already been operating full remote/remote friendly and offering perfectly fine wages. I really only see net-positive from this cultural shift. Frankly its obscene that location matters more than talent currently.

jasondigitized 6y ago

Within software at least, there are simply more people that have significant 'clock time' working within well run software companies in San Francisco, Seattle, Austin, etc. It's no different than college football players that spend their four years in well run systems that run pro style offenses. Sure, there may be a kid that has insane athletic ability that is playing at Calhoun Community College, but someone like Jerry Juedy ( wide receiver for Alabama ) is the player that the Denver Broncos will choose if they can get him. There simply aren't as many well run software companies in Omaha as there are in Seattle. And one could argue that the best free agents are going to be the ones coming out of those cities who can command higher market rates because companies believe there is higher ROI.

fnbr 6y ago
Yes, exactly. I've learned much more in the last two years working at a big tech co than I did at a small software company in the midwest, making me a much stronger engineer.

LeifCarrotson 6y ago

I've traveled to a lot of customer sites throughout the Midwest and to a couple dozen of their offshore plants in Mexico and China. Some of those customers are giant automotive OEMs and Tier 1 manufacturers with brand new glassy R&D labs with brand name equipment and Ivy League engineers making salaries well into the 6 figures. But some are tiny, self-taught, rural mom-and-pop outfits working from their garage with used equipment who might make more money as a line worker in the former shops. One critical thing to I've really come to experience in my travels is that all humans are basically the same. Those Ivy League engineers are no more intelligent or hard-working or creative than the guy in his garage or the site engineer from the Mexican or Chinese state university, instead it's often the opposite. If they're able to use the people, tools, and budget their position affords them, they can be more productive, but on the spot without those aids if anything they're less productive. The only differences are social connections, credentials, resources, the value multiplier from the volume that goes through their business, and the fraction of that value they're able to extract. The former three factors stack up against the engineer from Omaha. The last two mean that Facebook or Ford can easily afford those higher salaries while the Omaha garage cannot.

fnbr 6y ago

> I'd guess that the people worth $600,000 Facebook salaries are already living there and working for Facebook. Yes! I think this is true. However, the more interesting development to me is what happens 10 years from now. The engineers who are making $600k in SF are typically 10 years into their career (if not more). This is the biggest knock against expanding into places like Omaha- there's plenty of entry-level talent, but little, if any, mid-level to senior talent. In Edmonton (Canada), where I'm from, there's an awesome university that graduates tons of CS grads who immediately head to the Bay Area, because they can make 4x more there. As such, most of the work in town isn't sophisticated- there's lots of web development shops, but not many jobs doing sophisticated engineering at the level of, say, Facebook or Google. As a result, you're right, there's not many people who could get a $600k offer from Facebook. But! If these companies start supporting remote work, we could see tech ecosystems developing, and we could see new grads staying in these places, and building ecosystems around them. To answer your question about: "why, if there were such big savings on the table, these companies hadn't already moved in this direction." I think the answer is as follows: 1. New grads need more experienced talent to help mentor them and ensure that they're seen as productive. 2. All of the companies' offices have historically been in certain locations, so we either need to a) have the new grads move to somewhere we have experienced talent, or b) need to have experienced people move to where the new grads are. We see both of these- companies regularly will start new offices once they can get sufficiently experienced people to move there, but only when they can get that. This is the main reason (aiui) why many of the large tech cos in the Bay Area are concentrated in the Bay- there are no senior level people who are interested/willing to move.

a_imho 6y ago

Big IT does not care, they make bank despite bleeding stupid money. Reorg after reorg, projects canceled left and right, expensive consultants onboard not pulling their weight, cloud costs through the roof, the list goes on and on and on. Before covid most companies were hiring like crazy, it is not either/or, they want all those workers, both the people in SF and in Omaha too.

koheripbal 6y ago

Coincidentally, I am from Omaha, and moved to San Francisco for IT work. If I could move back, even for lower pay, I would - to be closer to family. Granted, I am just one data point, but it's hard to imagine I am alone...

ishjoh 6y ago
I left New York to move and be closer to family about 4 years ago. The local market does not pay well for software developers, but I've managed to find steady contracting work and with the lower cost of living have been saving more money. If you can find decision-makers and demonstrate quality work to them, and start planting the seeds that you would be available for contracting, there is a good chance you can make your move back to Omaha within a year.

thrwy_salary 6y ago

just as a counter point, and using a throwaway because I don't want to leak net worth stuff. I'm in a flyover state (started in SoCal, not remote). Not a FAANG. Base salary is 200k and I have about $200k per year in RSU, not to mention the IPO that gave me about $1M. I'm a distributed systems developer working on multi-tenant systems for hundreds of thousands of paying customers doing multiple billions of calls from customers that multiplex into larger internal load on our DCs. I've grown with a company from a couple dozen employees to thousands. Through IPOs and acquisitions (from both sides). This gives me some more perspective on working in different sized orgs with long time scales and a deep understanding of operations and maintaining software while switching out legacy code for new code (the proverbial changing out wings on a plane in flight). I'm sure there is not a big supply of folks like me anywhere, and most of us are probably doing work at FAANGs and such. Truth is, FAANGs can't afford me because I'm not jumping ship for anything less than full time remote with good people on a product I think is worthwhile for anything under $600k/yr. I'd actually like to start something around edtech, so maybe I'll look into that if I lose my golden gig.