4 ms·

I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same orig

by pharke 6y ago

I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Personally I'm in the "neural annealing" camp and it makes sense to me from personal experience that the benefits are due to psychedelics being a drug that essentially induces a state that you would normally only experience during profound and meaningful experiences. Those are the only other circumstances where I have felt the same as I have with psychedelics, experiencing a deep connection with the awesome scale and complexity of the natural world, falling in love, reading a life changing book, being transported emotionally and mentally by a symphony, getting caught up in the experience of a great movie, the physical rush of pushing yourself to your limits when exercising. We have drugs that seem to be able to produce the same life altering experiences that they can on demand. That's why it seems perverse to many people when it's argued that we should distill just the dregs of chemicals that produce the change without realizing that the actual mental and physical journey, the story that you weave around that experience that includes yourself, your thoughts, your environment and the people around you is probably the most important part. You can't just be happy all the time without having a reason to be happy, you can't be in love without someone to love and if you could it would seem more like a nightmare than an improvement.

justforyou 6y ago
>> You can't just be happy all the time without having a reason to be happy, you can't be in love without someone to love and if you could it would seem more like a nightmare than an improvement. What you are describing is the state of enlightenment, and those who have had sustained experiences with it would disagree.
- pharke 6y ago
  it's hard to argue with a buddha I guess
luckylion 6y ago
I completely agree that the profound experiences you can have during psychedelic trips can be life-altering. I don't know whether it's the experience that leads to the other benefits, and if it doesn't, I see no reason why one would have to get them bundled. The OP's comment reminded me of a some people I've come across that were into meditation and were anti-psychedelics, and to me it seemed like their main issue was that you could get these very deep experiences like ego-death but you didn't earn it, you didn't sit and quiet yourself for months and years, you just popped something into your mouth, experienced a bit of nausea and were teleported into a different dimension. It always seemed to me that they felt cheated because they took the hard road and felt that it's unfair that others took a short cut. Needless to say that it was even weirder given that they also tend to talk about compassion and inner peace a lot. I totally understand if you believe that you simply cannot separate the psychedelic from other parts because it is what gives the benefits. I did get the feeling that that's not quite it though, that there's a lot of "and you shouldn't try to", and that feels like "you shouldn't get the benefits without embracing the experience, potentially encountering your demons etc", or a religious practice surrounding it.
Kalium 6y ago
> I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Perhaps I've swallowed too much propaganda, but this seems like a testable belief. What if it's not true? What if psychadelic-assisted therapy is just one of multiple viable psychadelic-assisted treatment approaches? What if people want to be able to use store-bought neurotransmitters to regulate their minds without going through the trip-induced emotional or spiritual experience that they may not want? Would achieving a deeper understanding of the relevant neurochemistry and allowing people to make their own choices be so bad? Would more treatment options be a negative?
- pharke 6y ago
  I don't oppose the research or having more treatment options, I'm sure they would be necessary in many cases. My perception of it is a bit negative though at least when imagined to be an easy to access option for everyone, it's the same sort of opposition I feel towards the idea of taking steroids to promote muscle growth.

by pharke 6y ago

justforyou 6y ago

>> You can't just be happy all the time without having a reason to be happy, you can't be in love without someone to love and if you could it would seem more like a nightmare than an improvement. What you are describing is the state of enlightenment, and those who have had sustained experiences with it would disagree.

pharke 6y ago
it's hard to argue with a buddha I guess

luckylion 6y ago

I completely agree that the profound experiences you can have during psychedelic trips can be life-altering. I don't know whether it's the experience that leads to the other benefits, and if it doesn't, I see no reason why one would have to get them bundled. The OP's comment reminded me of a some people I've come across that were into meditation and were anti-psychedelics, and to me it seemed like their main issue was that you could get these very deep experiences like ego-death but you didn't earn it, you didn't sit and quiet yourself for months and years, you just popped something into your mouth, experienced a bit of nausea and were teleported into a different dimension. It always seemed to me that they felt cheated because they took the hard road and felt that it's unfair that others took a short cut. Needless to say that it was even weirder given that they also tend to talk about compassion and inner peace a lot. I totally understand if you believe that you simply cannot separate the psychedelic from other parts because it is what gives the benefits. I did get the feeling that that's not quite it though, that there's a lot of "and you shouldn't try to", and that feels like "you shouldn't get the benefits without embracing the experience, potentially encountering your demons etc", or a religious practice surrounding it.

Kalium 6y ago

> I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Perhaps I've swallowed too much propaganda, but this seems like a testable belief. What if it's not true? What if psychadelic-assisted therapy is just one of multiple viable psychadelic-assisted treatment approaches? What if people want to be able to use store-bought neurotransmitters to regulate their minds without going through the trip-induced emotional or spiritual experience that they may not want? Would achieving a deeper understanding of the relevant neurochemistry and allowing people to make their own choices be so bad? Would more treatment options be a negative?

pharke 6y ago
I don't oppose the research or having more treatment options, I'm sure they would be necessary in many cases. My perception of it is a bit negative though at least when imagined to be an easy to access option for everyone, it's the same sort of opposition I feel towards the idea of taking steroids to promote muscle growth.