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There's some serious irony that traditionally globalist brogrammer types are now whining about outsourcing (to "poorer" areas, or other countries). You guys did

There's some serious irony that traditionally globalist brogrammer types are now whining about outsourcing (to "poorer" areas, or other countries). You guys didn't care when it was happened to blue collar workers, and then go and rag on Trump voters who didn't see any other way out. Then there's the other faction that doesn't understand basic economics and expects Bay Area pay from Bangladesh so they can live like a king. Your employer will pay the minimum they can. Salaries are only high right now because of the concentration of talent and cost of living. To those people, please, get over yourselves and stop thinking you're somehow better because you went to college or don't do manual labour. Edit: Wow. Downvote in five seconds. Really makes you think how much effort people are putting into processing the words I wrote.

syndacks 6y ago
Would be curious for you to expand on what you mean by "traditionally globalist brogrammer types."
- cameronbrown 6y ago
  It's a generalisation to be sure. But many programmers (from Silicon Valley in particular) or other middle class workers like finance, law, etc.. are in this weird bubble totally isolated from reality. The working class has been complaining about outsourcing for decades and I just find it hypocritical that this bubble is only just starting to complain because now it affects them with remote work. It's elitist attitude and my number one complaint about our industry.
  - y-c-o-m-b 6y ago
    On the contrary - from my own anecdotal experience - programmers have been complaining about outsourcing forever. There was an especially strong distaste for it at Intel where outsourcing was more common. I've seen countless articles and opinions here on HackerNews outlining the tremendous loss of quality and productivity by outsourcing work over the years. Have you considered if you're the one living in the bubble?
johnwheeler 6y ago
Stereotyping is not cool.
- klingonopera 6y ago
  Acting like the don't exist either, isn't either. I coincidentally found this yesterday, and while it is on the topic of racism, you can just as much transpose races for classes, and still be on point: https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/02/colorblindness-adds-to-racism/ https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/02/colorblindness-adds-to-...
roosterdawn 6y ago
> Edit: Wow. Downvote in five seconds. Really makes you think how much effort people are putting into processing the words I wrote. What is there to process besides you making a strawman and injecting flat politically polarized tropes and adding nothing but pollution to a discussion? You are arguing in bad faith with shoddy arguments and should be downvoted: - False equivalence between blue collar and white collar outsourcing -- what makes you think knowledge work isn't substantially different from blue collar work for them to be apples and oranges? - Putting words in someone else's mouth -- no one here ragged on Trump voters who "didn't see any other way out" -- you perceived that and projected it into a space inappropriately. This is a giant forum with a variety of people and political opinions. Don't flatten that into a single viewpoint and expect to not get heat for it. - Misunderstanding of labor pricing. Employers pay the minimum they can, but saying "salaries are high right now because of concentration of talent" misses the network effect of concentration of talent. If you don't understand the nonlinear effect of that, I think it is a little bit misguided to suggest that others do not understand "basic economics" Please, rethink how you worded your post and how you can say what you were trying to say in a more factually grounded and less inflammatory way. I promise you will get better responses with this approach.
- cameronbrown 6y ago
  You're right. I wrote this post in anger and frustration because I don't like how things are heading. Let me try and clear things up. > - False equivalence between blue collar and white collar outsourcing -- what makes you think knowledge work isn't substantially different from blue collar work for them to be apples and oranges? I'm not suggesting that blue collar and white collar work is similar, but that, at the end of the day, these are livelihoods we're talking about. Remote work will eventually lead to outsourcing (if it is possible). Plenty of workers are saying, "give us WFH - it works" and if this is true, I can't see why those jobs wouldn't get shipped off ASAP. Every job outsourced is a damn shame, but as far as the media is telling me, I'm now supposed to start feeling sorry for white collar but not blue collar outsourcing? This is blatant bias. > Putting words in someone else's mouth -- no one here ragged on Trump voters who "didn't see any other way out" -- you perceived that and projected it into a space inappropriately. This is a giant forum with a variety of people and political opinions. Don't flatten that into a single viewpoint and expect to not get heat for it. Not on this forum, no, but go pick up any newspaper and you'll see plenty of evidence of this. I would go as far as to say, the primary reason Trump was elected was due to his strong anti-China/anti-outsourcing stance. That makes this whole situation political. > - Misunderstanding of labor pricing. Employers pay the minimum they can, but saying "salaries are high right now because of concentration of talent" misses the network effect of concentration of talent. If you don't understand the nonlinear effect of that, I think it is a little bit misguided to suggest that others do not understand "basic economics". I do understand this, but remote working to begin with, is predicated on the axiom that being in the same, shared physical space, isn't essential. If that's true, why would companies continue to overpay (from their PoV) workers in these tech hubs (at least long term)
jkingsbery 6y ago
In 2002, when I was looking at colleges and deciding what to do with my life, I received advice that I shouldn't go into programming, because outsourcing was going to make all the programming jobs go away. Fortunately for me, I ignored this advice. As others have noted, this all is not new (even if it might be different level). > You guys didn't care when it was happened to blue collar workers It's a strawman argument to conclude that because someone thinks that a thing is good on the whole (outsourcing), that there can't be bad consequences to it (people losing their jobs). For whatever it's worth, there seems to be a pretty strong pro-tech-union group on HN (which, I happen to disagree with, but that's a whole different story). Hopefully that's enough evidence that someone took the time to process what you wrote, and you use the feedback to write better.
jobsmusk 6y ago
I wouldn't conflate SV elitists with "brogrammers". It wouldn't be too far to say a programmer is today's blue collar worker. So, you're fighting your own "bros".

syndacks 6y ago

Would be curious for you to expand on what you mean by "traditionally globalist brogrammer types."

cameronbrown 6y ago
It's a generalisation to be sure. But many programmers (from Silicon Valley in particular) or other middle class workers like finance, law, etc.. are in this weird bubble totally isolated from reality. The working class has been complaining about outsourcing for decades and I just find it hypocritical that this bubble is only just starting to complain because now it affects them with remote work. It's elitist attitude and my number one complaint about our industry.
- y-c-o-m-b 6y ago
  On the contrary - from my own anecdotal experience - programmers have been complaining about outsourcing forever. There was an especially strong distaste for it at Intel where outsourcing was more common. I've seen countless articles and opinions here on HackerNews outlining the tremendous loss of quality and productivity by outsourcing work over the years. Have you considered if you're the one living in the bubble?

johnwheeler 6y ago

Stereotyping is not cool.

klingonopera 6y ago
Acting like the don't exist either, isn't either. I coincidentally found this yesterday, and while it is on the topic of racism, you can just as much transpose races for classes, and still be on point: https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/02/colorblindness-adds-to-racism/ https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/02/colorblindness-adds-to-...

roosterdawn 6y ago

> Edit: Wow. Downvote in five seconds. Really makes you think how much effort people are putting into processing the words I wrote. What is there to process besides you making a strawman and injecting flat politically polarized tropes and adding nothing but pollution to a discussion? You are arguing in bad faith with shoddy arguments and should be downvoted: - False equivalence between blue collar and white collar outsourcing -- what makes you think knowledge work isn't substantially different from blue collar work for them to be apples and oranges? - Putting words in someone else's mouth -- no one here ragged on Trump voters who "didn't see any other way out" -- you perceived that and projected it into a space inappropriately. This is a giant forum with a variety of people and political opinions. Don't flatten that into a single viewpoint and expect to not get heat for it. - Misunderstanding of labor pricing. Employers pay the minimum they can, but saying "salaries are high right now because of concentration of talent" misses the network effect of concentration of talent. If you don't understand the nonlinear effect of that, I think it is a little bit misguided to suggest that others do not understand "basic economics" Please, rethink how you worded your post and how you can say what you were trying to say in a more factually grounded and less inflammatory way. I promise you will get better responses with this approach.

cameronbrown 6y ago
You're right. I wrote this post in anger and frustration because I don't like how things are heading. Let me try and clear things up. > - False equivalence between blue collar and white collar outsourcing -- what makes you think knowledge work isn't substantially different from blue collar work for them to be apples and oranges? I'm not suggesting that blue collar and white collar work is similar, but that, at the end of the day, these are livelihoods we're talking about. Remote work will eventually lead to outsourcing (if it is possible). Plenty of workers are saying, "give us WFH - it works" and if this is true, I can't see why those jobs wouldn't get shipped off ASAP. Every job outsourced is a damn shame, but as far as the media is telling me, I'm now supposed to start feeling sorry for white collar but not blue collar outsourcing? This is blatant bias. > Putting words in someone else's mouth -- no one here ragged on Trump voters who "didn't see any other way out" -- you perceived that and projected it into a space inappropriately. This is a giant forum with a variety of people and political opinions. Don't flatten that into a single viewpoint and expect to not get heat for it. Not on this forum, no, but go pick up any newspaper and you'll see plenty of evidence of this. I would go as far as to say, the primary reason Trump was elected was due to his strong anti-China/anti-outsourcing stance. That makes this whole situation political. > - Misunderstanding of labor pricing. Employers pay the minimum they can, but saying "salaries are high right now because of concentration of talent" misses the network effect of concentration of talent. If you don't understand the nonlinear effect of that, I think it is a little bit misguided to suggest that others do not understand "basic economics". I do understand this, but remote working to begin with, is predicated on the axiom that being in the same, shared physical space, isn't essential. If that's true, why would companies continue to overpay (from their PoV) workers in these tech hubs (at least long term)

jkingsbery 6y ago

In 2002, when I was looking at colleges and deciding what to do with my life, I received advice that I shouldn't go into programming, because outsourcing was going to make all the programming jobs go away. Fortunately for me, I ignored this advice. As others have noted, this all is not new (even if it might be different level). > You guys didn't care when it was happened to blue collar workers It's a strawman argument to conclude that because someone thinks that a thing is good on the whole (outsourcing), that there can't be bad consequences to it (people losing their jobs). For whatever it's worth, there seems to be a pretty strong pro-tech-union group on HN (which, I happen to disagree with, but that's a whole different story). Hopefully that's enough evidence that someone took the time to process what you wrote, and you use the feedback to write better.

jobsmusk 6y ago

I wouldn't conflate SV elitists with "brogrammers". It wouldn't be too far to say a programmer is today's blue collar worker. So, you're fighting your own "bros".