6 ms·

It's more the opposite, "Intelligent Design" seems to be faith dressed up as science. While this would be more faith that doesn't contradict science.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
So, you just freely abandon the parts of faith that contradict science? Then why call it 'faith'? Its just 'hunches'.
- mikekchar 6y ago
  Are you implying that it is an important part of faith to cling to beliefs for which all observable evidence points to the contrary? It seems a bit hard to understand why one would want to pursue such a practice, so I wonder if I'm misunderstanding your point.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    What a neat, concise definition of faith! Despite a cruel and unfeeling universe, to believe in a just God is exactly as you describe. Yes, that is faith in a nutshell. Every attempt to 'reconcile' faith with science, compromises both and does no service to either. I'm not a person of faith (not in a dogma anyway). But I can understand that to mean anything at all, faith has to mean a different thing than 'observable confirmation of nature'.
    - mikekchar 6y ago
      Interesting. I am also not a "person of faith", but I don't use that definition of faith. Most people I've known who value faith, do so in areas where they are not sure one way or another. Generally speaking, faith is something that provides comfort because it gives them certainty for things that are uncertain to the person -- especially for things that can not be proved or disproven. Sometimes I've seen people have a "crisis in faith" because they discover that something they believed to be uncertain (and hence a good candidate for faith based belief) turns out to be quite certain and not what they believe. Usually this is quite uncomfortable for them. Sometimes they are able to continue with their faith by shifting their interpretation of the thing they believe onto something that is still uncertain to them. Sometimes they struggle to find something that will throw doubt on the situation so that they can continue their faith. Sometimes they they abandon their faith. I've really yet to meet anyone who walks into walls because they have faith that they don't exist (or other equivalent situations). I'm absolutely sure that they exist, but I don't think they are very common to be honest.
      - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
        Well, everybody that believes in truth, justice (and the American Way) is "walking into walls " every day. Its faith that some thinks you believe because they should be true. How does that figure into this?
    - jariel 6y ago
      "Yes, that is faith in a nutshell." Perhaps it is for many, but it isn't for others. The materialist view inherent in the antagonist's comments isn't necessarily the only rational view. Materialism, for example, cannot even explain Life, or rather it seems to promote a mechanical basis for it, wherein a more metaphysical view i.e. that 'life is what is expressed through the material, not the material itself' is a pretty obvious opportunity for explenation. To make the argument: "There is a God" as the basis for Religion, and then "There is only observable material" as the basis for 'Science' is I think wrong on both fronts. There's quite a lot in between. My own, personal view is that Spirituality is utterly rational, at least as rational as a materialist who wants to believe that you and I are merely random bags of particles, bouncing through the Universe, and that we're not really having a conversation, that we're two blobs of particles bouncing our 'fingers' of other blobs of particles, in a completely haphazard, random fashion. I don't even think the Priest was referring to 'rational' in the sense that we might.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

So, you just freely abandon the parts of faith that contradict science? Then why call it 'faith'? Its just 'hunches'.

mikekchar 6y ago
Are you implying that it is an important part of faith to cling to beliefs for which all observable evidence points to the contrary? It seems a bit hard to understand why one would want to pursue such a practice, so I wonder if I'm misunderstanding your point.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  What a neat, concise definition of faith! Despite a cruel and unfeeling universe, to believe in a just God is exactly as you describe. Yes, that is faith in a nutshell. Every attempt to 'reconcile' faith with science, compromises both and does no service to either. I'm not a person of faith (not in a dogma anyway). But I can understand that to mean anything at all, faith has to mean a different thing than 'observable confirmation of nature'.
  - mikekchar 6y ago
    Interesting. I am also not a "person of faith", but I don't use that definition of faith. Most people I've known who value faith, do so in areas where they are not sure one way or another. Generally speaking, faith is something that provides comfort because it gives them certainty for things that are uncertain to the person -- especially for things that can not be proved or disproven. Sometimes I've seen people have a "crisis in faith" because they discover that something they believed to be uncertain (and hence a good candidate for faith based belief) turns out to be quite certain and not what they believe. Usually this is quite uncomfortable for them. Sometimes they are able to continue with their faith by shifting their interpretation of the thing they believe onto something that is still uncertain to them. Sometimes they struggle to find something that will throw doubt on the situation so that they can continue their faith. Sometimes they they abandon their faith. I've really yet to meet anyone who walks into walls because they have faith that they don't exist (or other equivalent situations). I'm absolutely sure that they exist, but I don't think they are very common to be honest.
    - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
      Well, everybody that believes in truth, justice (and the American Way) is "walking into walls " every day. Its faith that some thinks you believe because they should be true. How does that figure into this?
  - jariel 6y ago
    "Yes, that is faith in a nutshell." Perhaps it is for many, but it isn't for others. The materialist view inherent in the antagonist's comments isn't necessarily the only rational view. Materialism, for example, cannot even explain Life, or rather it seems to promote a mechanical basis for it, wherein a more metaphysical view i.e. that 'life is what is expressed through the material, not the material itself' is a pretty obvious opportunity for explenation. To make the argument: "There is a God" as the basis for Religion, and then "There is only observable material" as the basis for 'Science' is I think wrong on both fronts. There's quite a lot in between. My own, personal view is that Spirituality is utterly rational, at least as rational as a materialist who wants to believe that you and I are merely random bags of particles, bouncing through the Universe, and that we're not really having a conversation, that we're two blobs of particles bouncing our 'fingers' of other blobs of particles, in a completely haphazard, random fashion. I don't even think the Priest was referring to 'rational' in the sense that we might.