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This is exactly the stigma psychedelic enthusiasts have in mind. Psychedelic-assisted therapy doesn't need to rely on patients being administered psychedelic do

This is exactly the stigma psychedelic enthusiasts have in mind. Psychedelic-assisted therapy doesn't need to rely on patients being administered psychedelic doses on a daily basis. What's actually happening (either in trials or by underground practictioners) is that the super-malleable/open to self-analysis mental states that can be induced by psychedelics can be a catalyst for significant long-term shifts in perspectives and thinking patterns. An amazing book to give you a cursory understanding of the state of the field is How to Change Your Mind: The New Science of Psychedelics by Michael Pollan. It'll give you a good understanding of what psychedelic research may be able to achieve (and what it's achieved so far).

luckylion 6y ago
> This is exactly the stigma psychedelic enthusiasts have in mind. Psychedelic-assisted therapy doesn't need to rely on patients being administered psychedelic doses on a daily basis. Why does it have to include the psychedelic component though (even sub-trip-levels)? Some seem to think that you absolutely must not divide the psychedelic qualities from other qualities, even if you could. As if "you only deserve to enjoy the anti-depressant benefits if you embrace the trippy potential of it". That sounds too religious to me. I find that a weird stance, and I'm very pro-psychedelics and would like to see them regulated but legally available. But I wouldn't want to keep depressed people who are afraid of the psychedelic experience from the benefits just because it won't help with legalization efforts. Again, I'm not suggesting that you can split them into "trip drug" and "anti-depressant drug". But if you could, I'm absolutely for doing so. I'll still take the trip drug, but people who are afraid of tripping can take the safe one and still get benefits.
- pharke 6y ago
  I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Personally I'm in the "neural annealing" camp and it makes sense to me from personal experience that the benefits are due to psychedelics being a drug that essentially induces a state that you would normally only experience during profound and meaningful experiences. Those are the only other circumstances where I have felt the same as I have with psychedelics, experiencing a deep connection with the awesome scale and complexity of the natural world, falling in love, reading a life changing book, being transported emotionally and mentally by a symphony, getting caught up in the experience of a great movie, the physical rush of pushing yourself to your limits when exercising. We have drugs that seem to be able to produce the same life altering experiences that they can on demand. That's why it seems perverse to many people when it's argued that we should distill just the dregs of chemicals that produce the change without realizing that the actual mental and physical journey, the story that you weave around that experience that includes yourself, your thoughts, your environment and the people around you is probably the most important part. You can't just be happy all the time without having a reason to be happy, you can't be in love without someone to love and if you could it would seem more like a nightmare than an improvement.
  - justforyou 6y ago
    >> You can't just be happy all the time without having a reason to be happy, you can't be in love without someone to love and if you could it would seem more like a nightmare than an improvement. What you are describing is the state of enlightenment, and those who have had sustained experiences with it would disagree.
    - pharke 6y ago
      it's hard to argue with a buddha I guess
  - luckylion 6y ago
    I completely agree that the profound experiences you can have during psychedelic trips can be life-altering. I don't know whether it's the experience that leads to the other benefits, and if it doesn't, I see no reason why one would have to get them bundled. The OP's comment reminded me of a some people I've come across that were into meditation and were anti-psychedelics, and to me it seemed like their main issue was that you could get these very deep experiences like ego-death but you didn't earn it, you didn't sit and quiet yourself for months and years, you just popped something into your mouth, experienced a bit of nausea and were teleported into a different dimension. It always seemed to me that they felt cheated because they took the hard road and felt that it's unfair that others took a short cut. Needless to say that it was even weirder given that they also tend to talk about compassion and inner peace a lot. I totally understand if you believe that you simply cannot separate the psychedelic from other parts because it is what gives the benefits. I did get the feeling that that's not quite it though, that there's a lot of "and you shouldn't try to", and that feels like "you shouldn't get the benefits without embracing the experience, potentially encountering your demons etc", or a religious practice surrounding it.
  - Kalium 6y ago
    > I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Perhaps I've swallowed too much propaganda, but this seems like a testable belief. What if it's not true? What if psychadelic-assisted therapy is just one of multiple viable psychadelic-assisted treatment approaches? What if people want to be able to use store-bought neurotransmitters to regulate their minds without going through the trip-induced emotional or spiritual experience that they may not want? Would achieving a deeper understanding of the relevant neurochemistry and allowing people to make their own choices be so bad? Would more treatment options be a negative?
- luckydata 6y ago
  the psychedelic effect is simply (so to speak) the outcome of shutting down your executive function (that one that creates your internal monologue and gives you the perception of the self) so that the rest of your brain function that normally are "kept together and normalized" become more accessible for analysis and introspection. Psychedelics are not anti-depressant, are just a potent accelerator for discovering WHY you're depressed. The psychedelic experience is necessary to the therapy. If you ever did a dose once you would understand exactly what I'm talking about, it's pretty hard not to understand what's happening once you experience it, just as it is essentially impossible before doing it.
  - luckylion 6y ago
    > If you ever did a dose once you would understand exactly what I'm talking about, it's pretty hard not to understand what's happening once you experience it, just as it is essentially impossible before doing it. Sorry, that sounds religious. I've experimented with psychedelics quite a bit, I've had very different intense experiences on them that have strongly affected me for long periods of time. That said, psychedelics do not unveil truths to you, not about the universe, not about yourself, but it can absolutely feel like it. You don't discover "why" you're depressed (as if there was a why, and understanding it would magically take the weight off of your shoulders; it's not a Hollywood movie). That's just mysticism and naive religious interpretation imho.
    - luckydata 6y ago
      You understood very little of what I was saying and it looks on purpose. If you like to go around feeling morally superior to people of faith (I’m not one of them btw) then leave me out of that please.

luckylion 6y ago

> This is exactly the stigma psychedelic enthusiasts have in mind. Psychedelic-assisted therapy doesn't need to rely on patients being administered psychedelic doses on a daily basis. Why does it have to include the psychedelic component though (even sub-trip-levels)? Some seem to think that you absolutely must not divide the psychedelic qualities from other qualities, even if you could. As if "you only deserve to enjoy the anti-depressant benefits if you embrace the trippy potential of it". That sounds too religious to me. I find that a weird stance, and I'm very pro-psychedelics and would like to see them regulated but legally available. But I wouldn't want to keep depressed people who are afraid of the psychedelic experience from the benefits just because it won't help with legalization efforts. Again, I'm not suggesting that you can split them into "trip drug" and "anti-depressant drug". But if you could, I'm absolutely for doing so. I'll still take the trip drug, but people who are afraid of tripping can take the safe one and still get benefits.

pharke 6y ago
I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Personally I'm in the "neural annealing" camp and it makes sense to me from personal experience that the benefits are due to psychedelics being a drug that essentially induces a state that you would normally only experience during profound and meaningful experiences. Those are the only other circumstances where I have felt the same as I have with psychedelics, experiencing a deep connection with the awesome scale and complexity of the natural world, falling in love, reading a life changing book, being transported emotionally and mentally by a symphony, getting caught up in the experience of a great movie, the physical rush of pushing yourself to your limits when exercising. We have drugs that seem to be able to produce the same life altering experiences that they can on demand. That's why it seems perverse to many people when it's argued that we should distill just the dregs of chemicals that produce the change without realizing that the actual mental and physical journey, the story that you weave around that experience that includes yourself, your thoughts, your environment and the people around you is probably the most important part. You can't just be happy all the time without having a reason to be happy, you can't be in love without someone to love and if you could it would seem more like a nightmare than an improvement.
- justforyou 6y ago
  >> You can't just be happy all the time without having a reason to be happy, you can't be in love without someone to love and if you could it would seem more like a nightmare than an improvement. What you are describing is the state of enlightenment, and those who have had sustained experiences with it would disagree.
  - pharke 6y ago
    it's hard to argue with a buddha I guess
- luckylion 6y ago
  I completely agree that the profound experiences you can have during psychedelic trips can be life-altering. I don't know whether it's the experience that leads to the other benefits, and if it doesn't, I see no reason why one would have to get them bundled. The OP's comment reminded me of a some people I've come across that were into meditation and were anti-psychedelics, and to me it seemed like their main issue was that you could get these very deep experiences like ego-death but you didn't earn it, you didn't sit and quiet yourself for months and years, you just popped something into your mouth, experienced a bit of nausea and were teleported into a different dimension. It always seemed to me that they felt cheated because they took the hard road and felt that it's unfair that others took a short cut. Needless to say that it was even weirder given that they also tend to talk about compassion and inner peace a lot. I totally understand if you believe that you simply cannot separate the psychedelic from other parts because it is what gives the benefits. I did get the feeling that that's not quite it though, that there's a lot of "and you shouldn't try to", and that feels like "you shouldn't get the benefits without embracing the experience, potentially encountering your demons etc", or a religious practice surrounding it.
- Kalium 6y ago
  > I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Perhaps I've swallowed too much propaganda, but this seems like a testable belief. What if it's not true? What if psychadelic-assisted therapy is just one of multiple viable psychadelic-assisted treatment approaches? What if people want to be able to use store-bought neurotransmitters to regulate their minds without going through the trip-induced emotional or spiritual experience that they may not want? Would achieving a deeper understanding of the relevant neurochemistry and allowing people to make their own choices be so bad? Would more treatment options be a negative?
luckydata 6y ago
the psychedelic effect is simply (so to speak) the outcome of shutting down your executive function (that one that creates your internal monologue and gives you the perception of the self) so that the rest of your brain function that normally are "kept together and normalized" become more accessible for analysis and introspection. Psychedelics are not anti-depressant, are just a potent accelerator for discovering WHY you're depressed. The psychedelic experience is necessary to the therapy. If you ever did a dose once you would understand exactly what I'm talking about, it's pretty hard not to understand what's happening once you experience it, just as it is essentially impossible before doing it.
- luckylion 6y ago
  > If you ever did a dose once you would understand exactly what I'm talking about, it's pretty hard not to understand what's happening once you experience it, just as it is essentially impossible before doing it. Sorry, that sounds religious. I've experimented with psychedelics quite a bit, I've had very different intense experiences on them that have strongly affected me for long periods of time. That said, psychedelics do not unveil truths to you, not about the universe, not about yourself, but it can absolutely feel like it. You don't discover "why" you're depressed (as if there was a why, and understanding it would magically take the weight off of your shoulders; it's not a Hollywood movie). That's just mysticism and naive religious interpretation imho.
  - luckydata 6y ago
    You understood very little of what I was saying and it looks on purpose. If you like to go around feeling morally superior to people of faith (I’m not one of them btw) then leave me out of that please.