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Landlord-friendly, self-install solar and battery kit

169 points by nikodunk 6y ago

nikodunk 6y ago
Original HN discussion for previous article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14821478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14821478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15425324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15425324
ageitgey 6y ago
It's cool idea (very similar to the Goal Zero system). But I have to say the sketchy Alibaba-level photoshopped product shots of the main battery unit don't add a lot of confidence.
- nikodunk 6y ago
  Yeah totally agree. The other guides on the site I've built, tested and lived with myself for the past 2-something years (since the original build below). But it's always been affiliates – this is my first time shipping and backing the hardware myself. I haven't got updated images of the samples yet – so apologies for the low image quality. If there are people out there who want systems like this, we'll have updated, glammy photos soon enough :). On a different note, I'm hoping to be able to partner with these guys to solve the "window-gap" problem: https://www.swrtec.com https://www.swrtec.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYezJJv_pEA&feature=emb_logo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYezJJv_pEA&feature=emb_logo
  - ageitgey 6y ago
    I think you should just be more transparent in the stage of delivery you are in on your site. This is a niche product for enthusiasts and I think an enthusiast customer would be fine supporting you if you were more clear about how your production is going on the kinds of problems you might hit delivering instead of trying to appear like it's all ready to go.
    - nikodunk 6y ago
      Point taken. The rest of the site is more along those lines I'd argue – and it's gotten around 15 hits a day from the "niche" community for the past few years. Though the stage of the project needs to be better fleshed out, a little marketing (even if it's probably too early on this pre-sale) goes such a long way I'd argue. Until this HN post got upvotes for the somewhat clickbait-y title I was not sure anyone in the world would care or even find this article or care about the concept :)
- thaumaturgy 6y ago
  Good call on "Alibaba-level", I was able to find this unit on there. Not gonna link because I don't want to stir up trouble. But I'd like to set up a good system for my vehicle, and products like this make me nervous. China mass-produces a lot of good stuff but they've also got a deserved reputation for cutting corners when nobody's looking. An 18650 that's missing its overcharge circuit will happily self-ignite and take my beloved vehicle with it. Remember all those reports of hoverboards spontaneously combusting a few years back? That was eventually traced back to bargain bin Li-Ion batteries from China. Before that, there was the spate of knock-off replacement batteries for cell phones that came with a free extra crispy option. Larger companies doing business in the US fear the FTC and state governments enough to often have some form of electrical QA on anything they sell with a Chinese origin. In this case though I'd be assuming all the risk and I don't have the expertise to evaluate it for quality and safety myself.
pftburger 6y ago
Just out of curiosity is grid based green energy available in your area? Here in Germany we can choose providers, and most have fully renewable options. For a little backup energy autonomy a home solar system is definitely fun but you will probably never offset the sunk carbon from the systems manufacture. I find for me solar definitely drives an awareness that energy isn’t limitless but it’s usually substantially greener to just do that as a mental exercise and buy the power from the grid. That said, having your own setup definitely stokes those nice “I’m autonomous” feelings. :)
- hokkos 6y ago
  "Green" energy is based on Green certificate that are sold on an exchange, and can be used at anytime during a year, in any connected countries, they are far from real fully renewable or even no marginal carbon. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190523111408.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190523111408.h... https://www.aib-net.org/ https://www.aib-net.org/ https://medium.com/electricitymap/why-green-electricity-contracts-fail-to-deliver-green-electricity-e0d66ca31d88 https://medium.com/electricitymap/why-green-electricity-cont...
  - avar 6y ago
    From the last link you cited: > Whoever buys the certificate can then claim that a certain amount of renewable electricity has been produced. Here’s where the problem is: the trade of certificates is not limited in space nor in time. It means that you can buy a certificate from a region disconnected from your electricity grid (space), or from the past (!) without making sure the electricity was stored (time). I've commented before on HN[1] about how this critique of energy certificates doesn't make any sense, the fact that you can time-shift consumption is a feature, not a bug. It helps if you think about it as a subsidy, which it is. You charge your battery on electrons produced at a coal plant and pay for e.g. 1 kWh of solar energy to be produced. That energy is then used to say charge a phone you just bought before it's delivered to you. It's not as superficially emotionally satisfying as imagining that all your electrons are "pure", but they're fungible. Just as you could say emit 1 ton of CO^2 and sequester 2 tons of CO^2 somewhere else at some other time. Did you just undo the pollution you emitted? I think so, but I think using your criteria you'd need to put that "cleanup" effort in another set of scare quotes. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21681772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21681772
rplnt 6y ago
Just few notes: - the first picture might not really be landlord-friendly; there are codes on what you can install outside your window and how (besides looks, you wouldn't want this to fall on someone) - shocking price - the wording alone would put me off of even being interested in the product; but putting that aside, $500 doesn't seem shocking to me at all - same tech battery as tesla; is this the "lithium-ion" part? come on - 5x more power - what is this supposed to mean?
- austinheap 6y ago
  This "solar picture in the Mission" has been posted many times on various blogs/spam sites. Not sure you need to take it seriously.
  - nikodunk 6y ago
    It's in Haight. And I hope it hasn't been re-posted to spam sites? :)
- nikodunk 6y ago
  All very good points. - True. Most people I know ended up ziptie-ing the panel(s) on their rooftop or in the back yard (more sunshine hours). - Yes. I meant for a 0.2kW, 5kWh, 500W system this is shockingly low. I'm tired of people getting ripped off on Amazon for drop-shipped stuff. I think $499 incl. shipping is shocking, but agree that the wording needs to be better. This is an early landing page :) - 18650 cells were used in early Tesla cars (to the best of my knowledge, they're still used in S and X?). Most people who are new to solar/storage are looking at AGMs and thinking "this is way more expensive" (but of course you get more cycles, better full discharge, etc with Lithium). Agreed that the wording needs to be better. - 5x more power than the other kits on the website, which can output around 100W AC. This system drives 500W AC. Again, thanks for the pointer. This will be improved.
  - netcan 6y ago
    How about "landlord-friendly design," and "consumer-friendly prices," "renter-friendly" or somesuch. Think about what you are trying to communicate. You can use "show-don't-tell" to imply superlatives. IE, let the reader colour in their own adjectives. The messages are simple: You can intall it yourself in a rental. It costs $500. You already show the price, and the specs. If you want/need more context, provide more context. Maybe price comparisons. Maybe you can contextualise the specs: battery can power these many devices, for this amount of time. The battery will charge in this amount of time, on an average October day. Try to keep the number of messages small and think of your words in a utilitarian way. They have specific jobs. Are they trying to inform, convince, associate with another product? Do the simplest thing that gets the job done.
jaxn 6y ago
spam
redis_mlc 6y ago
Just some comments: 1) Have a native English-speaker do some proof-reading and tone down the level of excitement to a credible level. The overall idea makes sense. 2) I've been in apartment buildings in SE Asia without window awnings where direct sunlight made the unit literally an oven. In that region, AC is $1000+/month when adjusted for COLA, so they try not to use AC. There is a huge market for a $100 window-mounted solar draw fan that doesn't necessarily need a battery or even an electricity output - just rotate the draw fan during sunlight. 4) FYI: In the Bay Area, you don't have much of a choice in grid provider. PG&E covers 100% of the region, and there's one local utility on the Peninsula and one in Alameda, last I heard. They all prioritize hospitals and emergency services, so in a blackout, may not provide expected redundancy.
battery_cowboy 6y ago
> 500Wh battery "Off-grid" for an hour or two?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jamisteven 6y ago
This reeks of spam, and that picture of the module on the apartment floor is not even real, its clearly photoshopped and a digital render of the product.
jamisteven 6y ago
All you need to know per registrar details of this URL: Creation Date: 2017-09-29T02:59:02Z Updated Date: 2019-09-29T07:55:04Z Registry Expiry Date: 2020-09-29T02:59:02Z
netcan 6y ago
Congratulations nikodunk. Kits like these are, IMO, pretty important steps along the way. First, they're accessible. People get their feet wet, learn. Since the technology is improving, it can be a rewarding "hobby" project. Every few years there will be upgrades available and prices will improve. A $500 kit has to be simple. That's a great environment for innovative contributions. Innovation & cultural change happen slower if the only Tesla, Samsung, power companies and other giants are playing. Remember that the web, and most of its innovations did not happen @ google or facebook. They were originated by many small players, and later collected into those big companies. Good luck to you. If you can establish a beachhead with this kit, you should have backwind to help you going forward. Batteries are the limiting factor, and they're improving.
- nikodunk 6y ago
  Just saw this now. Thank you, netcan! This is the plan.
grizzles 6y ago
Self install plug & play solar is a big opportunity imo. Because install costs are such a big share of system costs. The tipping point will probably be a company that ships a modular system that can be installed with only a mobile phone + drill & can scale from an apartment to a large building. Fraunhofer ISE has worked on this vision quite a bit.
stiray 6y ago
Nice idea, I wish you luck. > 18650 Same lithium battery tech used by Tesla /sarcasm on Come on, now this is over the edge :D Why didnt you rather say I am using it in electronic cigarette. Or maybe that it is used, like everywhere, from laptop batteries to power tools even before Tesla existed. And yeah it is used by Tesla too, like every other company that uses li-ion batteries and needs this sizing factor. /sarcasm off
apexalpha 6y ago
I'm exited for the fact that this technology can be sold for $500 now. Makes me wonder how cheap this could get in the future. For now, I don't have any use for it as the power never goes out here. But good luck! Maybe these will be as normal in the future as getting a jerrycan of gas is in some places.
CamperBob2 6y ago
There's a nice 3.5 kW "toolbox" design for $650 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVnQ87Fvsk4& https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVnQ87Fvsk4& Great bang:buck ratio, at least if you can get a good price on that many 18650s.
- AdrianB1 6y ago
  I saw that video recently and it does not include some things that made me stay away: labor cost, expertise and parts availability. - I cannot buy all the parts where I live (Eastern Europe) and not for the price in the video - I am decent with a soldering iron and quite ok with a screwdriver and power tools, but welding live batteries is out of reach for most people - it takes quite some time to do that work, not included in the $650 - I would like to modify that setup by adding more batteries or different batteries (like big motorcycle Li-Pol batteries), but I don't have the expertise to change the setup and I have no time to get that expertise, it is not something you learn in a few hours So it is a good proof of concept, but not really something to mass replicate by people at home.
  - jsjohnst 6y ago
    > welding live batteries is out of reach for most people Battery grade spot welders are $100-250 on Amazon and it’s easy to do, but I have to admit, even after welding hundreds of batteries I’m still nervous doing it because I’ve seen first hand what lithium ion batteries are like when they catch fire (unrelated incident where that happened).
- adrianN 6y ago
  Putting 3.5kWh of chemical energy in one box is pretty scary unless you're a professional. I wouldn't leave that thing unattended and always have something nearby that can extinguish a battery fire.
  - CamperBob2 6y ago
    This attitude is why people in New Jersey and Oregon aren't even allowed to pump their own gas. But hey, if it works for you, I guess it'll just have to do for the rest of us.
TekMol 6y ago
Can the solar panels be behind a window? Puttin solar panels on the outside of my apartment would be diffcult and dangerous. But putting them inside, so they get sunlight through a window would be easy. Heck, I can even see me using solar panels instead of blinds. Would that work? Or does the sunlight lose too much energy when going through glass? If so, how much energy gets lost?
- gwbas1c 6y ago
  > Can the solar panels be behind a window Short answer: No You'll have problems with shadows, window tints, bad angles... Solar panels work best in direct sunlight when they are angled so they face directly into the sun. If you stick a solar panel in the window, any tint in the window will reduce output. Bars, ect, will put shadows and reduce output. Assuming your window isn't very wide, the frame of your window will cast a shadow... So, unless you can get the panel on a porch, roof, fire escape, ect, don't bother.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  A short discussion: https://ecotality.com/will-solar-panels-work-through-glass/ https://ecotality.com/will-solar-panels-work-through-glass/ Anything between you and sunlight is a large decrease. Heck, hanging at the wrong angle is a big loss. Does the window face the sun directly? Far bigger issue really. And 'directly' doesn't really mean anything since the sun's direction changes constantly.
madaxe_again 6y ago
You say “I built”, but the inverter/charger/battery is an off the shelf unit - I have one from the same OEM here, 400Wh model, same outputs (but 230v ac), and I got a folding 150W panel for go with it. Works great as a stopgap for lighting, network stack, but 500Wh doesn’t go far with, say, a laptop, particularly after all the conversions. Anyway. I guess your primary value add is in bundling it all together and telling people where to stick stuff via zoom, but “I built” is a bit misleading. I designed and installed a 5kva 4800 solar watt 42kWh system here, but I wouldn’t say I built it - I just stuck the bits I ordered together.
- bryanrasmussen 6y ago
  I think that the original poster use of "I built" to mean sticking bits they bought together in a way that works is pretty much layman usage of the phrase. I suppose you might want a more stringent usage on HN, but I personally find it reasonable.
  - xhkkffbf 6y ago
    Car manufacturers buy lots of parts from tire companies, seat companies, engine companies and more. Yet I think it's fair to say they build the car.
- acd10j 6y ago
  Can you link invertor/charger/battery, would be interested for some hobby project of mine (not solar powered)
- robertlagrant 6y ago
  Show HN what you did :)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- timerol 6y ago
  I built my PC. I bought ~6 things off of Newegg and stuck them together. Combining pre-existing modules into a system is a valid use of the word "build."
pjc50 6y ago
Interesting, but a bit hard to make the economic case for it - it looks more suitable for camping/cabin use cases? It's not going to significantly reduce your energy consumption from the grid, since it doesn't tie into the house circuits.
ykevinator 6y ago
Nice job, this is great.
thePunisher 6y ago
You won't be able to run an A/C off 500W, most use 2000W or more.
chooseaname 6y ago
Companies like Jackery already have a whole line of products that do the same thing. What sets this apart?
- jsjohnst 6y ago
  Cheaper (and potentially lower quality in line with cheaper price). Jackery is over double the price for a comparable setup ($600 for 2x panels alone via Jackery’s site).
beaker52 6y ago
Costs $500 + planetary manufacturing costs of the battery, and panel, plus their pollution cost post-use. Based on constant use, it generates $50 of electricity per year + saves plantary production costs of electricty by traditional means. So providing the battery and panel don't fail or decline in function, it financially pays for itself after 10 years of constant use, realistically probably more like 8 or 9 years when you factor in rising domestic electricity costs. Looks like a terrible investment to me. Especially when you factor in the planetary costs of the physical production.
- AdrianB1 6y ago
  Adding one or 2 more panels would increase the output a lot with a small increase in price, making the financials a lot better. Yes, it is a bad deal as it is now.
- ashtonkem 6y ago
  The average payback on whole home solar is 7.5 years, so 10 isn't too far off normal. My problem is that semi-permanent installation at this size is of questionable utility; I don't want to have to juggle my electric usage between this and the regular grid in order to maximize my solar, that sounds incredibly inconvenient. Of course there are solutions to this, but they're not renter friendly.
  - im3w1l 6y ago
    The comparison should be against consumer cost of borrowing I think. And with a 10% yield it does look like can take a loan and come out ahead.
- falcolas 6y ago
  I do appreciate that they’re up front about this on their page at least.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Portable? For camping?! Maybe for glamping, where you have generous luggage space and don't have to carry it far (or at all). But then, you could use a camper mounted device already.
- cujo 6y ago
  Not all camping is backcountry hiking.
- 1over137 6y ago
  I sometimes camp by bicycle, and this looks pretty transportable by bike trailer.
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Sure. At the cost of many other things. Can you fit the appliances and the solar rig, all in the same bike trailer? Diminishing returns at some point.
- jpindar 6y ago
  Camping != backpacking. The pictures clearly show overlanding vehicles.
- delfinom 6y ago
  If you are going for camping, just buy a GoalZero battery system from Costco. They are literally the same thing, significantly higher capacity models available and actually a proven/working product instead of this crowdfunded shit that's just going be some rebranded chinese device.
- mikestew 6y ago
  Maybe for glamping, where you have generous luggage space Is that what the gatekeepers are calling "car camping" now? Not everyone carries their camping gear on their backs.
gwbas1c 6y ago
Years ago when I lived in an apartment I was tempted to build a similar setup. I was going to plug my refrigerator into the inverter, and use a rely to switch back to grid power once the battery was depleted. Anyway, some kind of rely to switch back to grid power when the battery is depleted would make this really cool.
AdrianB1 6y ago
The core idea is great, but the details are not. I am looking at something like that for a while and these are the comments: - the capacity is too low. For something to put on the roof of the car when going somewhere it as at the limit, but the usability is low: to power a few mobile phones a battery bank is much cheaper, to generate electricity for a few days of camping it is too low. For home it is way too low, I would add a few batteries and more panels, maybe 500W for panels and >2k for batteries. If I have a power failure I need something to keep my desktop and fridge running over night and run on solar during the day, that is the minimum where I consider buying, otherwise a UPS will give me more value. - the price is too high for a gadget and with such a low capacity it is a gadget, not a serious electricity source. Probably a higher price with a lot more capacity is a better deal.
- jsjohnst 6y ago
  Yeah, I don’t understand why they are only doing 500W for the batteries unless ultra portable size was the goal. I’ve made lots of batteries using Samsung 18650 cells (via a spot welder and nickel strips) and 500W is fairly simple to do. One of my drones draws over 3,000W as an example. Further, usually you care more about Wh and not W alone anyway. For example, the Samsung 25R 18650 (which I use frequently) is about 80W for a single cell fully charged, but is only up to about 10Wh. So for the 500Wh claim, that’s around $100 in batteries if new and Samsung, cheaper if alternative brands. So assuming you’re a DIYer (which obviously this listing isn’t targeted directly at): Batteries - around $100 500W inverter/charger - around $80 2x100W solar panels similar to ones pictured - Around $150 20ft of cable - around $20
jaclaz 6y ago
Only for context, previous related threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23317666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23317666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14821478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14821478
hellotomyrars 6y ago
As other commentators have pointed out, the images used are a huge problem and red flag for me. Why would I pay for this when you’re using the kind of photoshopped images of a product I would see on a cheap Chinese reselling site? Additionally you show flexible solar panels as part of the kit breakdown but every other image of solar panels is of a rigid, non-flexible kind. So which is it? Essentially to me you are selling your personal support and the lack of hassle for the end-user to source their own parts. I have a hard time trusting your parts when it doesn’t even seem like you have them yourself based on the images. (I don’t mean this to attack your character. I fully believe that you care based on your other comments. That is how it reads on the site though)
- vondur 6y ago
  You can purchase the same setup from Jackery that has customer support and looks cool too: https://www.jackery.com/ https://www.jackery.com/ They have the portable batteries and color coordinated portable solar panels.
- myopenid 6y ago
  Chinese make products Muricans make marketing.
  - dang 6y ago
    We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamebait and ignoring our requests to stop. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - myopenid 6y ago
      Care to explain why is it flamebait?
      - dang 6y ago
battery423 6y ago
This doesn't work in germany if you are renting. There is something called right on the facade and means that you as a renter or owner of a flat, you are not allowed to change the facade of the building which does include solar panel outside of your window. You could put it on your balcony in a way that it is not highly visible which contradicts the usage.
- z2 6y ago
  Similarly, in the US, most condo associations are restrictive, and would forbid hanging anything outside a window or balcony, on aesthetic and safety grounds. Installing things on the roof would likely be off limits too, unless you own exclusive rights to it and get approval to make modifications. Fining the unit owners to fix a tenant's dangling solar panel isn't landlord-friendly!
mrfusion 6y ago
I had a similar idea to this but simplified. I still think it’s a great idea. Basically you just sell the panel, and some kind of power conversion unit. When there is solar it inverts it and feeds it to whatever device you have plugged in. When there is no solar power it simply passes wall power to your device. No need for the expensive battery like this kit has. What do folks think? Why can’t we have products that let people dabble in solar and offset a small part of their bill?
- robertlagrant 6y ago
  Yeah that seems better. I can imagine a market for something like that driving a wireless router, or part-driving a fridge or an aircon, to reduce your bill a bit in summer.
- boromi 6y ago
  Ultimatley you still need battery or you will be wasting potential energy collection or it won't use solar when production isin't high enough to compeltely run the device off of. But yea this is a more practical idea as long as it's still coupled with a battery
  - mrfusion 6y ago
    How come rooftop panels don’t need a battery? I’ve always wondered that. Does the grid truly act as a battery?
    - mikestew 6y ago
      Rooftop that does not have a battery and inverter will not power your house when the grid goes off. In order to power anything with Alternating Current, what would it sync to? By now I'm probably an expert on RV solar installation, but a dork at residential. That said, I believe residential solar pumps energy back into the grid, but does not power the house. The grid does the powering, then you get credit on your electric bill. In contrast to our RV, where solar charges the big battery, and the big battery runs the inverter for AC-related things (and DC stuff just runs direct off battery).
jefftk 6y ago
I wonder whether a window AC unit with attached solar panel and electronics to drive the unit directly from the panel would make sense? You typically want air-conditioning most when the sun is shining. A standard AC unit draws too much power, unless you're gonna have a huge panel, but maybe there's something interesting you could do where the compressor draws whatever power is available?
- jsjohnst 6y ago
  You’d need like somewhere around ten of these panels to power even a small A/C unit that could maybe cool your bathroom or a small bedroom.
mumblemumble 6y ago
Landlord-friendly, but perhaps not city-friendly. In a lot of big cities (i.e., where us apartment dwellers tend to live), it's illegal to hang something like that out your window because of the risk of injury to people down on the sidewalk. That picture of it basically just propped up on the window ledge makes me particularly nervous. That's leaving you one gust of wind away from being out a few hundred bucks' worth of solar panel and few thousand bucks' worth of personal liability. I like the idea of creating green energy options that are more portable, but this one seems just a bit too portable. Perhaps there's a need some sort of mounting system like what they do for window unit air conditioners, where it's a bit more securely secured? (edit: I'm also having second thoughts on whether this is actually an good idea from an environmental perspective. If you do heat or air condition, I'm guessing you'll lose vastly more energy due to leaving your window slightly gapped in order to run a wire through it than you gain in from the solar panel.)
- polishdude20 6y ago
  That can easily be solved with straps. Now whether the user chooses to use straps or not is their problem.
  - itake 6y ago
    The images look like they were taken in San Francisco. Even with straps, I would expect the rubbing of the panel against the side of your house will cause damage in 98 MPH winds. You will also need to monitor the condition of the straps in case there is sun or weather damage. https://www.sfchronicle.com/weather/article/top-wind-speeds-storm-Marin-Bay-Area-13541241.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/weather/article/top-wind-speeds-...
- mindslight 6y ago
  You must have missed that the kit contains "8 x zip ties" to solve this. (/s) The pictures appear to show them zip tying a panel to a coax run that was just laying across the roof? sigh. Engineering is cool. Hipster-marketing stuff from Aliexpress while punting on the hard problems is not.
GoodJokes 6y ago
Why would I be friendly to a landlord?
boromi 6y ago
What does "window transmission" mean ?
Sam_Odio 6y ago
When I read these comments I'm left wishing we could be a more supportive community when peers try something new. I hope we can find a way to support Niko. It saddens me that many engineers don't start projects for fear of embarrassment from forums like these. My first startup failed for all sorts of legitimate reasons. My second startup sold to Facebook for millions. And all of them sounded like a bad idea at the start. Let's not be a modern slashdot and miss the forest for the trees. What if Niko or someone here is successful? How will history judge the incessant critiques? No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.
- quickthrowman 6y ago
  It’s a dangerous kit. There are no mounts included (zip ties don’t count) and the demo image on the website shows a panel sitting on a window ledge. Seems like a good way for a panel to fall and injure/kill somebody. Real solar panels installed on a home are bolted to structural members of the home so they can resist severe winds that happen yearly (60 mph+) “Move fast and break things” is dumb when it comes to electricity or physical products that get mounted on the exterior of a building, and there’s nothing wrong with calling someone out for failing to take safety into account. It’s a huge oversight.
- mikestew 6y ago
  When I read these comments I'm left wishing we could be a more supportive community when peers try something new. I've posted a critical comment to this thread, and I wish I could have been more constructive, too. But I am willing to risk ending up in the "iPod critic" bucket. We are being supportive by saying, "you better fix this shit". Because we as a community should not ignore safety issues, for instance. How supportive is it to let Niko sell this and then get the shit sued out of them because someone took their advice of sitting a rigid solar panel on a window ledge? How supportive is it to let ad copy ride that claims that weeny battery will run a fridge? How supportive is it when Niko asks, "why didn't anyone mention this?" and we all shrug our shoulders and say, "didn't want to be critical, bro." "Constructive criticism" is a thing. I hope that my criticism was constructive. But even if it is not, I will not paint over issues with false praise.
rafaelm 6y ago
Very cool! I've been reading a lot about solar power as a form of backup energy. We have power outages every day here and I'm looking for a way to at least power my wifi/modem and charge a laptop so I can keep working. Hobotech in YouTube might be interested in your idea! I've been watching a lot of his videos lately.
- nikodunk 6y ago
  Awesome! I'll reach out to them.
RyanGoosling 6y ago
For all you high-salaried renters out there dishing out exorbitant rents to the administration.
mikestew 6y ago
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but that web page needs a serious reset of expectations. Starting with the battery: 500Wh means if you want to run a fridge, it better be a tiny one. For those that don't have this stuff memorized, you can run 5 old-school 100W incandescent bulbs for an hour on that battery. That's about 20 minutes of microwave oven, and then you wait 3 or 4 hours before you do it again. Best I can figure, it'll barely run a 3.2 cubic foot "dorm" fridge, and with lossiness it probably won't be able to do even that. It'll run your lights, it'll charge your phone, you can run your laptop. Which is probably good enough for most folk. But that picture with a rigid panel just lying on that thin ledge, that has to go. Source: RV owner with 410W of heavily-researched solar on the roof, and a big-ass battery.
readme 6y ago
This is great. If you search Youtube there are quite a few videos of people doing their own off-grid solar installs, and some even grid tied. Obviously grid tied is a terrible idea if you don't get the proper permits and loop in the electrical company, but I've seen people doing it (and going to great lengths to conceal what they're doing, including using a relay to shut off the panel) The economic advantage of having solar panels is completely negated by the fact that the electric company owns the grid, and therefore, tells YOU what you can and can't do to the wiring of your own home. At the end of the day they'll give you a credit on your bill and skim off the top of the power you're generating. I have been wanting to build something like this, I want a lot more than 200W though. A lot of off-grid solutions I have looked at use a ground rod. Does anyone happen to know when that becomes necessary? Obviously you can't have a ground rod in an airplane, for example, just chassis ground.

169 points by nikodunk 6y ago

Original HN discussion for previous article: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14821478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14821478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15425324 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15425324

ageitgey 6y ago

It's cool idea (very similar to the Goal Zero system). But I have to say the sketchy Alibaba-level photoshopped product shots of the main battery unit don't add a lot of confidence.

nikodunk 6y ago
Yeah totally agree. The other guides on the site I've built, tested and lived with myself for the past 2-something years (since the original build below). But it's always been affiliates – this is my first time shipping and backing the hardware myself. I haven't got updated images of the samples yet – so apologies for the low image quality. If there are people out there who want systems like this, we'll have updated, glammy photos soon enough :). On a different note, I'm hoping to be able to partner with these guys to solve the "window-gap" problem: https://www.swrtec.com https://www.swrtec.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYezJJv_pEA&feature=emb_logo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYezJJv_pEA&feature=emb_logo
- ageitgey 6y ago
  I think you should just be more transparent in the stage of delivery you are in on your site. This is a niche product for enthusiasts and I think an enthusiast customer would be fine supporting you if you were more clear about how your production is going on the kinds of problems you might hit delivering instead of trying to appear like it's all ready to go.
  - nikodunk 6y ago
    Point taken. The rest of the site is more along those lines I'd argue – and it's gotten around 15 hits a day from the "niche" community for the past few years. Though the stage of the project needs to be better fleshed out, a little marketing (even if it's probably too early on this pre-sale) goes such a long way I'd argue. Until this HN post got upvotes for the somewhat clickbait-y title I was not sure anyone in the world would care or even find this article or care about the concept :)
thaumaturgy 6y ago
Good call on "Alibaba-level", I was able to find this unit on there. Not gonna link because I don't want to stir up trouble. But I'd like to set up a good system for my vehicle, and products like this make me nervous. China mass-produces a lot of good stuff but they've also got a deserved reputation for cutting corners when nobody's looking. An 18650 that's missing its overcharge circuit will happily self-ignite and take my beloved vehicle with it. Remember all those reports of hoverboards spontaneously combusting a few years back? That was eventually traced back to bargain bin Li-Ion batteries from China. Before that, there was the spate of knock-off replacement batteries for cell phones that came with a free extra crispy option. Larger companies doing business in the US fear the FTC and state governments enough to often have some form of electrical QA on anything they sell with a Chinese origin. In this case though I'd be assuming all the risk and I don't have the expertise to evaluate it for quality and safety myself.

pftburger 6y ago

Just out of curiosity is grid based green energy available in your area? Here in Germany we can choose providers, and most have fully renewable options. For a little backup energy autonomy a home solar system is definitely fun but you will probably never offset the sunk carbon from the systems manufacture. I find for me solar definitely drives an awareness that energy isn’t limitless but it’s usually substantially greener to just do that as a mental exercise and buy the power from the grid. That said, having your own setup definitely stokes those nice “I’m autonomous” feelings. :)

hokkos 6y ago
"Green" energy is based on Green certificate that are sold on an exchange, and can be used at anytime during a year, in any connected countries, they are far from real fully renewable or even no marginal carbon. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190523111408.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/190523111408.h... https://www.aib-net.org/ https://www.aib-net.org/ https://medium.com/electricitymap/why-green-electricity-contracts-fail-to-deliver-green-electricity-e0d66ca31d88 https://medium.com/electricitymap/why-green-electricity-cont...
- avar 6y ago
  From the last link you cited: > Whoever buys the certificate can then claim that a certain amount of renewable electricity has been produced. Here’s where the problem is: the trade of certificates is not limited in space nor in time. It means that you can buy a certificate from a region disconnected from your electricity grid (space), or from the past (!) without making sure the electricity was stored (time). I've commented before on HN[1] about how this critique of energy certificates doesn't make any sense, the fact that you can time-shift consumption is a feature, not a bug. It helps if you think about it as a subsidy, which it is. You charge your battery on electrons produced at a coal plant and pay for e.g. 1 kWh of solar energy to be produced. That energy is then used to say charge a phone you just bought before it's delivered to you. It's not as superficially emotionally satisfying as imagining that all your electrons are "pure", but they're fungible. Just as you could say emit 1 ton of CO^2 and sequester 2 tons of CO^2 somewhere else at some other time. Did you just undo the pollution you emitted? I think so, but I think using your criteria you'd need to put that "cleanup" effort in another set of scare quotes. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21681772 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21681772

rplnt 6y ago

Just few notes: - the first picture might not really be landlord-friendly; there are codes on what you can install outside your window and how (besides looks, you wouldn't want this to fall on someone) - shocking price - the wording alone would put me off of even being interested in the product; but putting that aside, $500 doesn't seem shocking to me at all - same tech battery as tesla; is this the "lithium-ion" part? come on - 5x more power - what is this supposed to mean?

austinheap 6y ago
This "solar picture in the Mission" has been posted many times on various blogs/spam sites. Not sure you need to take it seriously.
- nikodunk 6y ago
  It's in Haight. And I hope it hasn't been re-posted to spam sites? :)
nikodunk 6y ago
All very good points. - True. Most people I know ended up ziptie-ing the panel(s) on their rooftop or in the back yard (more sunshine hours). - Yes. I meant for a 0.2kW, 5kWh, 500W system this is shockingly low. I'm tired of people getting ripped off on Amazon for drop-shipped stuff. I think $499 incl. shipping is shocking, but agree that the wording needs to be better. This is an early landing page :) - 18650 cells were used in early Tesla cars (to the best of my knowledge, they're still used in S and X?). Most people who are new to solar/storage are looking at AGMs and thinking "this is way more expensive" (but of course you get more cycles, better full discharge, etc with Lithium). Agreed that the wording needs to be better. - 5x more power than the other kits on the website, which can output around 100W AC. This system drives 500W AC. Again, thanks for the pointer. This will be improved.
- netcan 6y ago
  How about "landlord-friendly design," and "consumer-friendly prices," "renter-friendly" or somesuch. Think about what you are trying to communicate. You can use "show-don't-tell" to imply superlatives. IE, let the reader colour in their own adjectives. The messages are simple: You can intall it yourself in a rental. It costs $500. You already show the price, and the specs. If you want/need more context, provide more context. Maybe price comparisons. Maybe you can contextualise the specs: battery can power these many devices, for this amount of time. The battery will charge in this amount of time, on an average October day. Try to keep the number of messages small and think of your words in a utilitarian way. They have specific jobs. Are they trying to inform, convince, associate with another product? Do the simplest thing that gets the job done.

jaxn 6y ago

spam

redis_mlc 6y ago

Just some comments: 1) Have a native English-speaker do some proof-reading and tone down the level of excitement to a credible level. The overall idea makes sense. 2) I've been in apartment buildings in SE Asia without window awnings where direct sunlight made the unit literally an oven. In that region, AC is $1000+/month when adjusted for COLA, so they try not to use AC. There is a huge market for a $100 window-mounted solar draw fan that doesn't necessarily need a battery or even an electricity output - just rotate the draw fan during sunlight. 4) FYI: In the Bay Area, you don't have much of a choice in grid provider. PG&E covers 100% of the region, and there's one local utility on the Peninsula and one in Alameda, last I heard. They all prioritize hospitals and emergency services, so in a blackout, may not provide expected redundancy.

battery_cowboy 6y ago

> 500Wh battery "Off-grid" for an hour or two?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

jamisteven 6y ago

This reeks of spam, and that picture of the module on the apartment floor is not even real, its clearly photoshopped and a digital render of the product.

jamisteven 6y ago

All you need to know per registrar details of this URL: Creation Date: 2017-09-29T02:59:02Z Updated Date: 2019-09-29T07:55:04Z Registry Expiry Date: 2020-09-29T02:59:02Z

netcan 6y ago

Congratulations nikodunk. Kits like these are, IMO, pretty important steps along the way. First, they're accessible. People get their feet wet, learn. Since the technology is improving, it can be a rewarding "hobby" project. Every few years there will be upgrades available and prices will improve. A $500 kit has to be simple. That's a great environment for innovative contributions. Innovation & cultural change happen slower if the only Tesla, Samsung, power companies and other giants are playing. Remember that the web, and most of its innovations did not happen @ google or facebook. They were originated by many small players, and later collected into those big companies. Good luck to you. If you can establish a beachhead with this kit, you should have backwind to help you going forward. Batteries are the limiting factor, and they're improving.

nikodunk 6y ago
Just saw this now. Thank you, netcan! This is the plan.

grizzles 6y ago

Self install plug & play solar is a big opportunity imo. Because install costs are such a big share of system costs. The tipping point will probably be a company that ships a modular system that can be installed with only a mobile phone + drill & can scale from an apartment to a large building. Fraunhofer ISE has worked on this vision quite a bit.

stiray 6y ago

Nice idea, I wish you luck. > 18650 Same lithium battery tech used by Tesla /sarcasm on Come on, now this is over the edge :D Why didnt you rather say I am using it in electronic cigarette. Or maybe that it is used, like everywhere, from laptop batteries to power tools even before Tesla existed. And yeah it is used by Tesla too, like every other company that uses li-ion batteries and needs this sizing factor. /sarcasm off

apexalpha 6y ago

I'm exited for the fact that this technology can be sold for $500 now. Makes me wonder how cheap this could get in the future. For now, I don't have any use for it as the power never goes out here. But good luck! Maybe these will be as normal in the future as getting a jerrycan of gas is in some places.

CamperBob2 6y ago

There's a nice 3.5 kW "toolbox" design for $650 here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVnQ87Fvsk4& https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVnQ87Fvsk4& Great bang:buck ratio, at least if you can get a good price on that many 18650s.

AdrianB1 6y ago
I saw that video recently and it does not include some things that made me stay away: labor cost, expertise and parts availability. - I cannot buy all the parts where I live (Eastern Europe) and not for the price in the video - I am decent with a soldering iron and quite ok with a screwdriver and power tools, but welding live batteries is out of reach for most people - it takes quite some time to do that work, not included in the $650 - I would like to modify that setup by adding more batteries or different batteries (like big motorcycle Li-Pol batteries), but I don't have the expertise to change the setup and I have no time to get that expertise, it is not something you learn in a few hours So it is a good proof of concept, but not really something to mass replicate by people at home.
- jsjohnst 6y ago
  > welding live batteries is out of reach for most people Battery grade spot welders are $100-250 on Amazon and it’s easy to do, but I have to admit, even after welding hundreds of batteries I’m still nervous doing it because I’ve seen first hand what lithium ion batteries are like when they catch fire (unrelated incident where that happened).
adrianN 6y ago
Putting 3.5kWh of chemical energy in one box is pretty scary unless you're a professional. I wouldn't leave that thing unattended and always have something nearby that can extinguish a battery fire.
- CamperBob2 6y ago
  This attitude is why people in New Jersey and Oregon aren't even allowed to pump their own gas. But hey, if it works for you, I guess it'll just have to do for the rest of us.

TekMol 6y ago

Can the solar panels be behind a window? Puttin solar panels on the outside of my apartment would be diffcult and dangerous. But putting them inside, so they get sunlight through a window would be easy. Heck, I can even see me using solar panels instead of blinds. Would that work? Or does the sunlight lose too much energy when going through glass? If so, how much energy gets lost?

gwbas1c 6y ago
> Can the solar panels be behind a window Short answer: No You'll have problems with shadows, window tints, bad angles... Solar panels work best in direct sunlight when they are angled so they face directly into the sun. If you stick a solar panel in the window, any tint in the window will reduce output. Bars, ect, will put shadows and reduce output. Assuming your window isn't very wide, the frame of your window will cast a shadow... So, unless you can get the panel on a porch, roof, fire escape, ect, don't bother.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
A short discussion: https://ecotality.com/will-solar-panels-work-through-glass/ https://ecotality.com/will-solar-panels-work-through-glass/ Anything between you and sunlight is a large decrease. Heck, hanging at the wrong angle is a big loss. Does the window face the sun directly? Far bigger issue really. And 'directly' doesn't really mean anything since the sun's direction changes constantly.

madaxe_again 6y ago

You say “I built”, but the inverter/charger/battery is an off the shelf unit - I have one from the same OEM here, 400Wh model, same outputs (but 230v ac), and I got a folding 150W panel for go with it. Works great as a stopgap for lighting, network stack, but 500Wh doesn’t go far with, say, a laptop, particularly after all the conversions. Anyway. I guess your primary value add is in bundling it all together and telling people where to stick stuff via zoom, but “I built” is a bit misleading. I designed and installed a 5kva 4800 solar watt 42kWh system here, but I wouldn’t say I built it - I just stuck the bits I ordered together.

bryanrasmussen 6y ago
I think that the original poster use of "I built" to mean sticking bits they bought together in a way that works is pretty much layman usage of the phrase. I suppose you might want a more stringent usage on HN, but I personally find it reasonable.
- xhkkffbf 6y ago
  Car manufacturers buy lots of parts from tire companies, seat companies, engine companies and more. Yet I think it's fair to say they build the car.
acd10j 6y ago
Can you link invertor/charger/battery, would be interested for some hobby project of mine (not solar powered)
robertlagrant 6y ago
Show HN what you did :)
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
timerol 6y ago
I built my PC. I bought ~6 things off of Newegg and stuck them together. Combining pre-existing modules into a system is a valid use of the word "build."

pjc50 6y ago

Interesting, but a bit hard to make the economic case for it - it looks more suitable for camping/cabin use cases? It's not going to significantly reduce your energy consumption from the grid, since it doesn't tie into the house circuits.

ykevinator 6y ago

Nice job, this is great.

thePunisher 6y ago

You won't be able to run an A/C off 500W, most use 2000W or more.

chooseaname 6y ago

Companies like Jackery already have a whole line of products that do the same thing. What sets this apart?

jsjohnst 6y ago
Cheaper (and potentially lower quality in line with cheaper price). Jackery is over double the price for a comparable setup ($600 for 2x panels alone via Jackery’s site).

beaker52 6y ago

Costs $500 + planetary manufacturing costs of the battery, and panel, plus their pollution cost post-use. Based on constant use, it generates $50 of electricity per year + saves plantary production costs of electricty by traditional means. So providing the battery and panel don't fail or decline in function, it financially pays for itself after 10 years of constant use, realistically probably more like 8 or 9 years when you factor in rising domestic electricity costs. Looks like a terrible investment to me. Especially when you factor in the planetary costs of the physical production.

AdrianB1 6y ago
Adding one or 2 more panels would increase the output a lot with a small increase in price, making the financials a lot better. Yes, it is a bad deal as it is now.
ashtonkem 6y ago
The average payback on whole home solar is 7.5 years, so 10 isn't too far off normal. My problem is that semi-permanent installation at this size is of questionable utility; I don't want to have to juggle my electric usage between this and the regular grid in order to maximize my solar, that sounds incredibly inconvenient. Of course there are solutions to this, but they're not renter friendly.
- im3w1l 6y ago
  The comparison should be against consumer cost of borrowing I think. And with a 10% yield it does look like can take a loan and come out ahead.
falcolas 6y ago
I do appreciate that they’re up front about this on their page at least.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

Portable? For camping?! Maybe for glamping, where you have generous luggage space and don't have to carry it far (or at all). But then, you could use a camper mounted device already.

cujo 6y ago
Not all camping is backcountry hiking.
1over137 6y ago
I sometimes camp by bicycle, and this looks pretty transportable by bike trailer.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Sure. At the cost of many other things. Can you fit the appliances and the solar rig, all in the same bike trailer? Diminishing returns at some point.
jpindar 6y ago
Camping != backpacking. The pictures clearly show overlanding vehicles.
delfinom 6y ago
If you are going for camping, just buy a GoalZero battery system from Costco. They are literally the same thing, significantly higher capacity models available and actually a proven/working product instead of this crowdfunded shit that's just going be some rebranded chinese device.
mikestew 6y ago
Maybe for glamping, where you have generous luggage space Is that what the gatekeepers are calling "car camping" now? Not everyone carries their camping gear on their backs.

gwbas1c 6y ago

Years ago when I lived in an apartment I was tempted to build a similar setup. I was going to plug my refrigerator into the inverter, and use a rely to switch back to grid power once the battery was depleted. Anyway, some kind of rely to switch back to grid power when the battery is depleted would make this really cool.

AdrianB1 6y ago

The core idea is great, but the details are not. I am looking at something like that for a while and these are the comments: - the capacity is too low. For something to put on the roof of the car when going somewhere it as at the limit, but the usability is low: to power a few mobile phones a battery bank is much cheaper, to generate electricity for a few days of camping it is too low. For home it is way too low, I would add a few batteries and more panels, maybe 500W for panels and >2k for batteries. If I have a power failure I need something to keep my desktop and fridge running over night and run on solar during the day, that is the minimum where I consider buying, otherwise a UPS will give me more value. - the price is too high for a gadget and with such a low capacity it is a gadget, not a serious electricity source. Probably a higher price with a lot more capacity is a better deal.

jsjohnst 6y ago
Yeah, I don’t understand why they are only doing 500W for the batteries unless ultra portable size was the goal. I’ve made lots of batteries using Samsung 18650 cells (via a spot welder and nickel strips) and 500W is fairly simple to do. One of my drones draws over 3,000W as an example. Further, usually you care more about Wh and not W alone anyway. For example, the Samsung 25R 18650 (which I use frequently) is about 80W for a single cell fully charged, but is only up to about 10Wh. So for the 500Wh claim, that’s around $100 in batteries if new and Samsung, cheaper if alternative brands. So assuming you’re a DIYer (which obviously this listing isn’t targeted directly at): Batteries - around $100 500W inverter/charger - around $80 2x100W solar panels similar to ones pictured - Around $150 20ft of cable - around $20

jaclaz 6y ago

Only for context, previous related threads: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23317666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23317666 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14821478 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14821478

hellotomyrars 6y ago

As other commentators have pointed out, the images used are a huge problem and red flag for me. Why would I pay for this when you’re using the kind of photoshopped images of a product I would see on a cheap Chinese reselling site? Additionally you show flexible solar panels as part of the kit breakdown but every other image of solar panels is of a rigid, non-flexible kind. So which is it? Essentially to me you are selling your personal support and the lack of hassle for the end-user to source their own parts. I have a hard time trusting your parts when it doesn’t even seem like you have them yourself based on the images. (I don’t mean this to attack your character. I fully believe that you care based on your other comments. That is how it reads on the site though)

vondur 6y ago
You can purchase the same setup from Jackery that has customer support and looks cool too: https://www.jackery.com/ https://www.jackery.com/ They have the portable batteries and color coordinated portable solar panels.
myopenid 6y ago
Chinese make products Muricans make marketing.
- dang 6y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamebait and ignoring our requests to stop. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - myopenid 6y ago
    Care to explain why is it flamebait?
    - dang 6y ago

battery423 6y ago

This doesn't work in germany if you are renting. There is something called right on the facade and means that you as a renter or owner of a flat, you are not allowed to change the facade of the building which does include solar panel outside of your window. You could put it on your balcony in a way that it is not highly visible which contradicts the usage.

z2 6y ago
Similarly, in the US, most condo associations are restrictive, and would forbid hanging anything outside a window or balcony, on aesthetic and safety grounds. Installing things on the roof would likely be off limits too, unless you own exclusive rights to it and get approval to make modifications. Fining the unit owners to fix a tenant's dangling solar panel isn't landlord-friendly!

mrfusion 6y ago

I had a similar idea to this but simplified. I still think it’s a great idea. Basically you just sell the panel, and some kind of power conversion unit. When there is solar it inverts it and feeds it to whatever device you have plugged in. When there is no solar power it simply passes wall power to your device. No need for the expensive battery like this kit has. What do folks think? Why can’t we have products that let people dabble in solar and offset a small part of their bill?

robertlagrant 6y ago
Yeah that seems better. I can imagine a market for something like that driving a wireless router, or part-driving a fridge or an aircon, to reduce your bill a bit in summer.
boromi 6y ago
Ultimatley you still need battery or you will be wasting potential energy collection or it won't use solar when production isin't high enough to compeltely run the device off of. But yea this is a more practical idea as long as it's still coupled with a battery
- mrfusion 6y ago
  How come rooftop panels don’t need a battery? I’ve always wondered that. Does the grid truly act as a battery?
  - mikestew 6y ago
    Rooftop that does not have a battery and inverter will not power your house when the grid goes off. In order to power anything with Alternating Current, what would it sync to? By now I'm probably an expert on RV solar installation, but a dork at residential. That said, I believe residential solar pumps energy back into the grid, but does not power the house. The grid does the powering, then you get credit on your electric bill. In contrast to our RV, where solar charges the big battery, and the big battery runs the inverter for AC-related things (and DC stuff just runs direct off battery).

jefftk 6y ago

I wonder whether a window AC unit with attached solar panel and electronics to drive the unit directly from the panel would make sense? You typically want air-conditioning most when the sun is shining. A standard AC unit draws too much power, unless you're gonna have a huge panel, but maybe there's something interesting you could do where the compressor draws whatever power is available?

jsjohnst 6y ago
You’d need like somewhere around ten of these panels to power even a small A/C unit that could maybe cool your bathroom or a small bedroom.

mumblemumble 6y ago

Landlord-friendly, but perhaps not city-friendly. In a lot of big cities (i.e., where us apartment dwellers tend to live), it's illegal to hang something like that out your window because of the risk of injury to people down on the sidewalk. That picture of it basically just propped up on the window ledge makes me particularly nervous. That's leaving you one gust of wind away from being out a few hundred bucks' worth of solar panel and few thousand bucks' worth of personal liability. I like the idea of creating green energy options that are more portable, but this one seems just a bit too portable. Perhaps there's a need some sort of mounting system like what they do for window unit air conditioners, where it's a bit more securely secured? (edit: I'm also having second thoughts on whether this is actually an good idea from an environmental perspective. If you do heat or air condition, I'm guessing you'll lose vastly more energy due to leaving your window slightly gapped in order to run a wire through it than you gain in from the solar panel.)

polishdude20 6y ago
That can easily be solved with straps. Now whether the user chooses to use straps or not is their problem.
- itake 6y ago
  The images look like they were taken in San Francisco. Even with straps, I would expect the rubbing of the panel against the side of your house will cause damage in 98 MPH winds. You will also need to monitor the condition of the straps in case there is sun or weather damage. https://www.sfchronicle.com/weather/article/top-wind-speeds-storm-Marin-Bay-Area-13541241.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/weather/article/top-wind-speeds-...
mindslight 6y ago
You must have missed that the kit contains "8 x zip ties" to solve this. (/s) The pictures appear to show them zip tying a panel to a coax run that was just laying across the roof? sigh. Engineering is cool. Hipster-marketing stuff from Aliexpress while punting on the hard problems is not.

GoodJokes 6y ago

Why would I be friendly to a landlord?

boromi 6y ago

What does "window transmission" mean ?

Sam_Odio 6y ago

When I read these comments I'm left wishing we could be a more supportive community when peers try something new. I hope we can find a way to support Niko. It saddens me that many engineers don't start projects for fear of embarrassment from forums like these. My first startup failed for all sorts of legitimate reasons. My second startup sold to Facebook for millions. And all of them sounded like a bad idea at the start. Let's not be a modern slashdot and miss the forest for the trees. What if Niko or someone here is successful? How will history judge the incessant critiques? No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame.

quickthrowman 6y ago
It’s a dangerous kit. There are no mounts included (zip ties don’t count) and the demo image on the website shows a panel sitting on a window ledge. Seems like a good way for a panel to fall and injure/kill somebody. Real solar panels installed on a home are bolted to structural members of the home so they can resist severe winds that happen yearly (60 mph+) “Move fast and break things” is dumb when it comes to electricity or physical products that get mounted on the exterior of a building, and there’s nothing wrong with calling someone out for failing to take safety into account. It’s a huge oversight.
mikestew 6y ago
When I read these comments I'm left wishing we could be a more supportive community when peers try something new. I've posted a critical comment to this thread, and I wish I could have been more constructive, too. But I am willing to risk ending up in the "iPod critic" bucket. We are being supportive by saying, "you better fix this shit". Because we as a community should not ignore safety issues, for instance. How supportive is it to let Niko sell this and then get the shit sued out of them because someone took their advice of sitting a rigid solar panel on a window ledge? How supportive is it to let ad copy ride that claims that weeny battery will run a fridge? How supportive is it when Niko asks, "why didn't anyone mention this?" and we all shrug our shoulders and say, "didn't want to be critical, bro." "Constructive criticism" is a thing. I hope that my criticism was constructive. But even if it is not, I will not paint over issues with false praise.

rafaelm 6y ago

Very cool! I've been reading a lot about solar power as a form of backup energy. We have power outages every day here and I'm looking for a way to at least power my wifi/modem and charge a laptop so I can keep working. Hobotech in YouTube might be interested in your idea! I've been watching a lot of his videos lately.

nikodunk 6y ago
Awesome! I'll reach out to them.

RyanGoosling 6y ago

For all you high-salaried renters out there dishing out exorbitant rents to the administration.

mikestew 6y ago

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but that web page needs a serious reset of expectations. Starting with the battery: 500Wh means if you want to run a fridge, it better be a tiny one. For those that don't have this stuff memorized, you can run 5 old-school 100W incandescent bulbs for an hour on that battery. That's about 20 minutes of microwave oven, and then you wait 3 or 4 hours before you do it again. Best I can figure, it'll barely run a 3.2 cubic foot "dorm" fridge, and with lossiness it probably won't be able to do even that. It'll run your lights, it'll charge your phone, you can run your laptop. Which is probably good enough for most folk. But that picture with a rigid panel just lying on that thin ledge, that has to go. Source: RV owner with 410W of heavily-researched solar on the roof, and a big-ass battery.

readme 6y ago

This is great. If you search Youtube there are quite a few videos of people doing their own off-grid solar installs, and some even grid tied. Obviously grid tied is a terrible idea if you don't get the proper permits and loop in the electrical company, but I've seen people doing it (and going to great lengths to conceal what they're doing, including using a relay to shut off the panel) The economic advantage of having solar panels is completely negated by the fact that the electric company owns the grid, and therefore, tells YOU what you can and can't do to the wiring of your own home. At the end of the day they'll give you a credit on your bill and skim off the top of the power you're generating. I have been wanting to build something like this, I want a lot more than 200W though. A lot of off-grid solutions I have looked at use a ground rod. Does anyone happen to know when that becomes necessary? Obviously you can't have a ground rod in an airplane, for example, just chassis ground.