8 ms·

So I've finally convinced my wife that it's time to leave. As a 40 year old software eng manager, where should I go? My top choice at the moment is London as m

So I've finally convinced my wife that it's time to leave. As a 40 year old software eng manager, where should I go? My top choice at the moment is London as my wife has British citizenship and several of my wife's friends are in Europe; I also have access to the E-3 visa so the US is also an option.

Krasnol 6y ago
You're aware that Brexit is coming? You'll probably get out of one trouble into another.
- fleeing_hk 6y ago
  I'm well aware; it cannot possibly be worse than where Hong Kong will be, is all I'm considering. Besides, the Brexit brain drain might actually work in my favour... ;) That said, I'm open to other options; for example, I really liked Berlin as a tourist, but need to research more on what it's like to actually live there.
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    It's great. I had to move back after 4 years in Singapore. This time for good.
  - dmix 6y ago
    There's an excellent BBC show (1 episode), "Make Me a German" about a UK couple moving to Germany and it explains a great deal about day-to-day German culture, including raising kids there and work culture. I personally like plenty about the culture shown (hard work, raising kids in alternative education outdoors, strong sense of community, their obsession with efficiency but liberal vacation time/work benefits), but I could see it turning some people off. Also of note they went to Nuremberg and he took a job at a pencil factory, which may be more traditional Germany than you'd experience in Berlin or other urban areas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYghC4DXRC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYghC4DXRC8
  - nix23 6y ago
    Why not considering Switzerland? Have relatives that moved to Berlin and they are not happy anymore there. Denmark/Norway/Iceland/Sweden should also be on your radar also Netherlands/Belgium.
- bobthechef 6y ago
  Why is Brexit relevant? What kind of trouble do you think he and his wife will end up in?
  - hopfscotch 6y ago
    Riots. Unrest. Economic decline.
    - lttlrck 6y ago
      Given the current upheaval around the world and the jostling for economic advantage it’s not at all clear that being in the EU would be beneficial - or not.
      - hopfscotch 6y ago
        True. It's dangerous everywhere right now.
    - splintercell 6y ago
      Who do you think would be rioting? Pro-Brexit people or Anti-Brexit people?
      - jnbiche 6y ago
        That question depends on how Brexit goes, doesn't it?
      - hopfscotch 6y ago
        Both. Either. Does it matter?
  - Krasnol 6y ago
    Economic primary.
baybal2 6y ago
Well buddy, we are in the same boat. What can you call a "normal country" these days? A dozen some names will come up, but would there be any which aren't "retirement communes" for the rich like Canada? Not many of them have the same vibe, and dynamism. Quite a lot do actually stagnate.
OmarIsmail 6y ago
Come to Canada. Specific tech hot spots are Vancouver/Waterloo/Toronto/Montreal. The weather and healthcare are things you need to get used to, but gorgeous environment with friendly, diverse, and well educated population.
- PopeDotNinja 6y ago
  What are salaries for top quartile developers in Canada?
  - gregsadetsky 6y ago
    Average of ~~60-70k CAD in Toronto, depending on experience, specific domain, etc. Levels.fyi shows a much higher median of 130k USD for the whole country, but is also based on many FAANG jobs -- https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Canada/ https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Canada/ See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11806441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11806441
    - srle 6y ago
      The 130k USD is 1000% actually supposed to be CAD. Canadian salaries are pretty awful, and it’s not uncommon to see job listings looking for a sr eng with 8 years of exp and offering like 90-110k. Outliers exist, but even for top tier companies Canadian compensation is gonna be lower. Not a bad place if you’ve got persistent health issues or maybe if you want to raise a family, but other than that it’s pretty shitty IMO. I’m personally going to try my hardest to move down south as soon as this corona stuff starts settling down.
      - hopfscotch 6y ago
        There is political violence on the horizon in the US. I would not come here. I'm looking for a way out myself.
        jnbiche 6y ago
cal5k 6y ago
Canada!
otoburb 6y ago
>>My top choice at the moment is London as my wife has British citizenship and several of my wife's friends are in Europe; Given the upheaval, instant support network and an inalienable right to enter and stay in the UK, I agree wholeheartedly with your top choice. It's just safer until you can circle the wagons and plan the next move.
poulsbohemian 6y ago
Funny thing about this - I'm an American and I started to answer your message "I'm with you brother, let's go to Canada!" only to realize you are fleeing Hong Kong, not the US...
AnimalMuppet 6y ago
Starting about 2017, for the first time in my life, I hesitate to recommend the US. Maybe Switzerland? (If you can get in...)
iamthemonster 6y ago
Since immigration is such a long, complex and expensive process, going where you have citizenship first makes perfect sense. I am personally biased against London and I believe it is a vastly overrated bubble, and I much prefer small cities and large towns. Rural areas can also be, unexpectedly, much easier places to make friendships if you are ok with picking up volunteering, and would be much more comfortable and picturesque than London. I'm assuming at your age you're not doing late-night entertainment frequently - in that case you can live a fairly long way out of London and still make good use of it. You can be 50 minutes from London Bridge and live surrounded by green fields. For the longer term, Australian state capital cities are probably the most liveable locations in the world. There is little demand for apartments, so small-space urban living is comparatively affordable.
throwaway77384 6y ago
As someone who once lived in London for about 10 years: Go anywhere else. Yes, fewer opportunities, but not NO opportunities. And what you may lose in salary, you will win doubly and triply in quality of life, lower living costs, lower transport costs, etc... What truly matters is the lack of stress from the truly adversarial environment that London's commute represents. (Though, having been to HK also, I guess London is actually not too different, in terms of what stereotypical, huge cities are like.)
gbuk2013 6y ago
My other half is from HK. We live in London and most of her family lives in Canada so I get to spend a bit of time there every year. London is London - the only city that can hold a candle to it is New York and having spent time in the latter I prefer London. ;) Basically it has anything you want shopping , hobby, entertainment, food whatever within 1h on public transport. Accommodation is expensive but it’s actually cheaper compared to HK. Current virus shutdown notwithstanding, there’s plenty of IT work here. We live in SE (Zone 4) and it’s nice and leafy area and we can still be in the centre in less than 30 mins. Canada is quite a different way of life - more relaxed but a bit boring IMO (my opinion might well change as I get older). Toronto is OK - the city is too American looking for my liking but I didn’t spend much time there to really know it. Traffic is a big problem. Large Chinese community there - around Markham where we go is practically all Chinese. The food is excellent - much better Chinese food and seafood than London. Very clean and pleasant neighbourhood. Everything is really spread out though - outside the city going somewhere is at least 20min drive. Going somewhere else in Canada is a serious journey - it is a huge country with lots of empty space in between. Trains and flights are expensive.
ansy 6y ago
The San Francisco Bay Area will almost always be the most financially beneficial choice if you can get a job at one of the top tech companies. Not only because your initial job will pay well, but you will also have many more high paying alternatives for future career growth. You will probably be shocked to see the recent salaries in the Bay Area compared to Toronto, London, and Hong Kong.[0] Granted, these salary ranges may already be lower due to COVID, but that will be true everywhere in the world. [0] https://www.levels.fyi/2019/ https://www.levels.fyi/2019/

Krasnol 6y ago

You're aware that Brexit is coming? You'll probably get out of one trouble into another.

fleeing_hk 6y ago
I'm well aware; it cannot possibly be worse than where Hong Kong will be, is all I'm considering. Besides, the Brexit brain drain might actually work in my favour... ;) That said, I'm open to other options; for example, I really liked Berlin as a tourist, but need to research more on what it's like to actually live there.
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  It's great. I had to move back after 4 years in Singapore. This time for good.
- dmix 6y ago
  There's an excellent BBC show (1 episode), "Make Me a German" about a UK couple moving to Germany and it explains a great deal about day-to-day German culture, including raising kids there and work culture. I personally like plenty about the culture shown (hard work, raising kids in alternative education outdoors, strong sense of community, their obsession with efficiency but liberal vacation time/work benefits), but I could see it turning some people off. Also of note they went to Nuremberg and he took a job at a pencil factory, which may be more traditional Germany than you'd experience in Berlin or other urban areas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYghC4DXRC8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYghC4DXRC8
- nix23 6y ago
  Why not considering Switzerland? Have relatives that moved to Berlin and they are not happy anymore there. Denmark/Norway/Iceland/Sweden should also be on your radar also Netherlands/Belgium.
bobthechef 6y ago
Why is Brexit relevant? What kind of trouble do you think he and his wife will end up in?
- hopfscotch 6y ago
  Riots. Unrest. Economic decline.
  - lttlrck 6y ago
    Given the current upheaval around the world and the jostling for economic advantage it’s not at all clear that being in the EU would be beneficial - or not.
    - hopfscotch 6y ago
      True. It's dangerous everywhere right now.
  - splintercell 6y ago
    Who do you think would be rioting? Pro-Brexit people or Anti-Brexit people?
    - jnbiche 6y ago
      That question depends on how Brexit goes, doesn't it?
    - hopfscotch 6y ago
      Both. Either. Does it matter?
- Krasnol 6y ago
  Economic primary.

baybal2 6y ago

Well buddy, we are in the same boat. What can you call a "normal country" these days? A dozen some names will come up, but would there be any which aren't "retirement communes" for the rich like Canada? Not many of them have the same vibe, and dynamism. Quite a lot do actually stagnate.

OmarIsmail 6y ago

Come to Canada. Specific tech hot spots are Vancouver/Waterloo/Toronto/Montreal. The weather and healthcare are things you need to get used to, but gorgeous environment with friendly, diverse, and well educated population.

PopeDotNinja 6y ago
What are salaries for top quartile developers in Canada?
- gregsadetsky 6y ago
  Average of ~~60-70k CAD in Toronto, depending on experience, specific domain, etc. Levels.fyi shows a much higher median of 130k USD for the whole country, but is also based on many FAANG jobs -- https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Canada/ https://www.levels.fyi/Salaries/Software-Engineer/Canada/ See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11806441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11806441
  - srle 6y ago
    The 130k USD is 1000% actually supposed to be CAD. Canadian salaries are pretty awful, and it’s not uncommon to see job listings looking for a sr eng with 8 years of exp and offering like 90-110k. Outliers exist, but even for top tier companies Canadian compensation is gonna be lower. Not a bad place if you’ve got persistent health issues or maybe if you want to raise a family, but other than that it’s pretty shitty IMO. I’m personally going to try my hardest to move down south as soon as this corona stuff starts settling down.
    - hopfscotch 6y ago
      There is political violence on the horizon in the US. I would not come here. I'm looking for a way out myself.
      - jnbiche 6y ago

cal5k 6y ago

Canada!

otoburb 6y ago

>>My top choice at the moment is London as my wife has British citizenship and several of my wife's friends are in Europe; Given the upheaval, instant support network and an inalienable right to enter and stay in the UK, I agree wholeheartedly with your top choice. It's just safer until you can circle the wagons and plan the next move.

poulsbohemian 6y ago

Funny thing about this - I'm an American and I started to answer your message "I'm with you brother, let's go to Canada!" only to realize you are fleeing Hong Kong, not the US...

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

Starting about 2017, for the first time in my life, I hesitate to recommend the US. Maybe Switzerland? (If you can get in...)

iamthemonster 6y ago

Since immigration is such a long, complex and expensive process, going where you have citizenship first makes perfect sense. I am personally biased against London and I believe it is a vastly overrated bubble, and I much prefer small cities and large towns. Rural areas can also be, unexpectedly, much easier places to make friendships if you are ok with picking up volunteering, and would be much more comfortable and picturesque than London. I'm assuming at your age you're not doing late-night entertainment frequently - in that case you can live a fairly long way out of London and still make good use of it. You can be 50 minutes from London Bridge and live surrounded by green fields. For the longer term, Australian state capital cities are probably the most liveable locations in the world. There is little demand for apartments, so small-space urban living is comparatively affordable.

throwaway77384 6y ago

As someone who once lived in London for about 10 years: Go anywhere else. Yes, fewer opportunities, but not NO opportunities. And what you may lose in salary, you will win doubly and triply in quality of life, lower living costs, lower transport costs, etc... What truly matters is the lack of stress from the truly adversarial environment that London's commute represents. (Though, having been to HK also, I guess London is actually not too different, in terms of what stereotypical, huge cities are like.)

gbuk2013 6y ago

My other half is from HK. We live in London and most of her family lives in Canada so I get to spend a bit of time there every year. London is London - the only city that can hold a candle to it is New York and having spent time in the latter I prefer London. ;) Basically it has anything you want shopping , hobby, entertainment, food whatever within 1h on public transport. Accommodation is expensive but it’s actually cheaper compared to HK. Current virus shutdown notwithstanding, there’s plenty of IT work here. We live in SE (Zone 4) and it’s nice and leafy area and we can still be in the centre in less than 30 mins. Canada is quite a different way of life - more relaxed but a bit boring IMO (my opinion might well change as I get older). Toronto is OK - the city is too American looking for my liking but I didn’t spend much time there to really know it. Traffic is a big problem. Large Chinese community there - around Markham where we go is practically all Chinese. The food is excellent - much better Chinese food and seafood than London. Very clean and pleasant neighbourhood. Everything is really spread out though - outside the city going somewhere is at least 20min drive. Going somewhere else in Canada is a serious journey - it is a huge country with lots of empty space in between. Trains and flights are expensive.

ansy 6y ago

The San Francisco Bay Area will almost always be the most financially beneficial choice if you can get a job at one of the top tech companies. Not only because your initial job will pay well, but you will also have many more high paying alternatives for future career growth. You will probably be shocked to see the recent salaries in the Bay Area compared to Toronto, London, and Hong Kong.[0] Granted, these salary ranges may already be lower due to COVID, but that will be true everywhere in the world. [0] https://www.levels.fyi/2019/ https://www.levels.fyi/2019/