2 ms·

But UBI is not isolated to anyone part of the country. If you want to have a UBI in one city, it makes perfect sense that a person is going to want to move ther

But UBI is not isolated to anyone part of the country. If you want to have a UBI in one city, it makes perfect sense that a person is going to want to move there. Free money, is free. The point I think you missed is that despite the cheerleading for a UBI, capitalism is going to negate that rapidly. If prices rise by the amount of the UBI, then you’re just spending that money but your overall financial stability is still negated. If you know that everyone is receiving thousand dollars a month from the government for free, why not raise the car price $1000? Why not raise the rent $1000? The Fantasy of a UBI requires that you completely ignore economics, and put blind faith in the rest of the system to go along.

danans 6y ago
> If you know that everyone is receiving thousand dollars a month from the government for free, why not race car price is $1000? Competition from other car-makers, which is precisely capitalism. Otherwise it would be illegal price collusion. > Why not raise the rent $1000? You can only do that if supply/demand in your area supports that, and that's often because of local restrictions on increasing housing (i.e. as seen in a variety of exclusive Bay Area hamlets). With UBI, more people would be able to choose not to inhabit these supply-constrained housing markets, which might actually temper rents in those areas. If every place implements excessive supply constraints on housing, that would again be collusion - which is another issue that should be addressed simultaneously.
- Simulacra 6y ago
  It would not be illegal price collusion if every auto maker came to the same conclusion: raise prices. UBI seems to completely ignore economics both in theory and practice. It’s almost like a political fantasy in order to get votes, but has never shown actual promise anywhere in the world.
  - matz1 6y ago
    >It would not be illegal price collusion if every auto maker came to the same conclusion: raise prices They could, until one of them try to out compete other by lowering price.
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    This is a total absurdity, cars are not a daily good people need to survive. If all car companies suffer a derangement simultaneously and decides they are entitled to a larger share of my money, I, along with other consumers, will put off our purcase untill they've come to their sences. A few months of reduced sales willl get the message across. With rents the situation is a bit more plausible, but car manufacturers have excess capacity, and there is no ' limited nunber of cars' in the world. If we needed to double their production, we would.
    - Simulacra 6y ago
      Which example can you understand? How about laundry soap. That’s a necessity. Store brands go up by 50% because people can afford it. If anything a UBI shifts money from the taxpayer to corporations.
      - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
        Can actually demonstrate thay this effect of " raising prices because people can afgord it" has ever happened? Because to me it looks like a serious misinterpretation of economics
        Simulacra 6y ago
        You missed the UBI hypothetical buddy. Scroll back up. Why are products priced the way they are? Why is an Apple Macbook $2,000 instead of $200? Because the market will pay for it. If no one was willing to pay $800 for a new phone they would not be $800, that price would have to come down. If a UBI is instituted, this new information that consumers now have a guaranteed hand out from the government, it means the price at which the market CAN pay has increased. Thus if you're a seller you...raise the prices. This is not a moral question.
        ClumsyPilot 6y ago
        Stop arguing by just reiterating the same set of assumptions over an over again. Especially since most of them are demonstrably wrong. Firstly most products are commodities and are priced based on cost of production. They are volume products in international markets, people will import grain from across the world if that's cheaper. Yoy can't raise prices on them just because you want to. Goods like Macbooks are the minority, and most peope who buy macbooks arent on minimum wage and UBI will increase their incomes by like 5% big woop. Pick up a book on economics and you will realise that economy is not that predictable and mechanistic, and that there are mutiple competing theories, and all ofbthem are ibconplete. So no matter what you believe ecobomically, you should be carefull rather than dogmatic about it.
  - danans 6y ago
    > It would not be illegal price collusion if every auto maker came to the same conclusion: raise prices No car company raises (or for that matter lowers) prices independently without considering what their competitors are doing. All of them raising their prices together in that context is collusion.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  None of these price increases require broad collaboration or collusion. The market sniffs out that more dollars are chasing fewer goods and prices increase as a function of supply & demand.
- jstarfish 6y ago
  > Competition from other car-makers, which is precisely capitalism. Otherwise it would be illegal price collusion. You say that like price collusion doesn't happen anyway. https://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2009/er0629gg1.htm https://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2009/er0629gg1... We already saw the Obama administration tax the shit out of underpriced Chinese tires to drive production and consumption of domestic brands. So some funny money gets injected into the market, and the first thing we see is American manufacturers taking advantage of the lack of competition by raising their own prices to absorb the delta in capital since cheaper alternatives no longer existed. UBI does not work in a capitalist economy. Prices always adjust to the maximum people are able to pay, even (and especially) where it does not meet the statutory definition of "collusion." It's fucked by design.
- Simulacra 6y ago
  What is a "supply-constrained housing market" ? There's two definitions you could apply to that: One is that it is supply constrained because there's not enough housing. The other is that you simply can't afford to live there. Apartment complexes found this out by using credit scores to levy "deposits" on potential renters as a way to a) scare them away, or b) exact a financial insurance policy. A UBI only works in theory because it doesn't take into account human nature, and greed.

danans 6y ago

> If you know that everyone is receiving thousand dollars a month from the government for free, why not race car price is $1000? Competition from other car-makers, which is precisely capitalism. Otherwise it would be illegal price collusion. > Why not raise the rent $1000? You can only do that if supply/demand in your area supports that, and that's often because of local restrictions on increasing housing (i.e. as seen in a variety of exclusive Bay Area hamlets). With UBI, more people would be able to choose not to inhabit these supply-constrained housing markets, which might actually temper rents in those areas. If every place implements excessive supply constraints on housing, that would again be collusion - which is another issue that should be addressed simultaneously.

Simulacra 6y ago
It would not be illegal price collusion if every auto maker came to the same conclusion: raise prices. UBI seems to completely ignore economics both in theory and practice. It’s almost like a political fantasy in order to get votes, but has never shown actual promise anywhere in the world.
- matz1 6y ago
  >It would not be illegal price collusion if every auto maker came to the same conclusion: raise prices They could, until one of them try to out compete other by lowering price.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  This is a total absurdity, cars are not a daily good people need to survive. If all car companies suffer a derangement simultaneously and decides they are entitled to a larger share of my money, I, along with other consumers, will put off our purcase untill they've come to their sences. A few months of reduced sales willl get the message across. With rents the situation is a bit more plausible, but car manufacturers have excess capacity, and there is no ' limited nunber of cars' in the world. If we needed to double their production, we would.
  - Simulacra 6y ago
    Which example can you understand? How about laundry soap. That’s a necessity. Store brands go up by 50% because people can afford it. If anything a UBI shifts money from the taxpayer to corporations.
    - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
      Can actually demonstrate thay this effect of " raising prices because people can afgord it" has ever happened? Because to me it looks like a serious misinterpretation of economics
      - Simulacra 6y ago
        You missed the UBI hypothetical buddy. Scroll back up. Why are products priced the way they are? Why is an Apple Macbook $2,000 instead of $200? Because the market will pay for it. If no one was willing to pay $800 for a new phone they would not be $800, that price would have to come down. If a UBI is instituted, this new information that consumers now have a guaranteed hand out from the government, it means the price at which the market CAN pay has increased. Thus if you're a seller you...raise the prices. This is not a moral question.
        ClumsyPilot 6y ago
        Stop arguing by just reiterating the same set of assumptions over an over again. Especially since most of them are demonstrably wrong. Firstly most products are commodities and are priced based on cost of production. They are volume products in international markets, people will import grain from across the world if that's cheaper. Yoy can't raise prices on them just because you want to. Goods like Macbooks are the minority, and most peope who buy macbooks arent on minimum wage and UBI will increase their incomes by like 5% big woop. Pick up a book on economics and you will realise that economy is not that predictable and mechanistic, and that there are mutiple competing theories, and all ofbthem are ibconplete. So no matter what you believe ecobomically, you should be carefull rather than dogmatic about it.
- danans 6y ago
  > It would not be illegal price collusion if every auto maker came to the same conclusion: raise prices No car company raises (or for that matter lowers) prices independently without considering what their competitors are doing. All of them raising their prices together in that context is collusion.
chrisco255 6y ago
None of these price increases require broad collaboration or collusion. The market sniffs out that more dollars are chasing fewer goods and prices increase as a function of supply & demand.
jstarfish 6y ago
> Competition from other car-makers, which is precisely capitalism. Otherwise it would be illegal price collusion. You say that like price collusion doesn't happen anyway. https://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2009/er0629gg1.htm https://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2009/er0629gg1... We already saw the Obama administration tax the shit out of underpriced Chinese tires to drive production and consumption of domestic brands. So some funny money gets injected into the market, and the first thing we see is American manufacturers taking advantage of the lack of competition by raising their own prices to absorb the delta in capital since cheaper alternatives no longer existed. UBI does not work in a capitalist economy. Prices always adjust to the maximum people are able to pay, even (and especially) where it does not meet the statutory definition of "collusion." It's fucked by design.
Simulacra 6y ago
What is a "supply-constrained housing market" ? There's two definitions you could apply to that: One is that it is supply constrained because there's not enough housing. The other is that you simply can't afford to live there. Apartment complexes found this out by using credit scores to levy "deposits" on potential renters as a way to a) scare them away, or b) exact a financial insurance policy. A UBI only works in theory because it doesn't take into account human nature, and greed.