4 ms·

Don't be absurd. One might with equal justice say that yours is the definition of free speech that Stormfront likes.

pinkfoot 6y ago
Ok I'll bite: how is "you are free say what you want but you may have to face a firing squad" and different in experience to "you cannot say any of these things, if you do you will face a firing squad" ? The whole POINT of 'free speech' is that there are no consequences. (And no you shouldn't be allowed to shout 'fire' in a theatre).
- throwanem 6y ago
  Your last two statements contradict one another, but also make clear that you recognize your appeal to absurdity for what it is. Do you think no one else will?
  - pinkfoot 6y ago
    Er, because I am not a supporter of unfettered free speech. But I also wont bend the definition either. That’s where the problems start.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Ok I'll bite: how is "you are free say what you want but you may have to face a firing squad" That's not the consequence here. The consequence is “other private parties might choose not to relay your speech or continue association with you, exercising their own rights to free speech and association.” Me not allowing you to use my resources to magnify the reach of your message isn't analogous to the state subjecting you to capital punishment. > The whole POINT of 'free speech' is that there are no consequences. No, the whole point is that the state doesn't have their thumb on the scale, allowing ideas to succeed or fail by their ability, or not, to attract support from private actors. Legislation in which the state intervenes to prevent private consequences through the exercise of free speech are not only on their face contrary to free speech, but sabotage the operation of the marketplace of ideas.
- anthony_romeo 6y ago
  Does Twitter have firing squads?
lordlimecat 6y ago
The definition of free speech that stormfront likes is also the one that the supreme court has upheld and that is necessary for a thriving marketplace of ideas. Bad, ignorant, hateful ideas are bad because they are wrong; if they were true, you would not call facts "bad". That being the case, the correct response is to defeat them with truth-- not censorship, whether state or privately enacted. Censorship is just admitting that you dislike the ideas but cannot argue them down with reason and are resorting to the cudgel.
- magicalist 6y ago
  > also the one that the supreme court has upheld the Supreme Court certainly has not upheld compelled speech. And internet theories about private services as de facto public forums continue to be defeated in court (PragerU v Google being the most recent example).
  - Wistar 6y ago
    See also the recent Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals decision on whether or not free speech applies on a private platform (spoiler: it doesn't). "Despite YouTube's ubiquity and its role as a public-facing platform, it remains a private forum, not a public forum subject to judicial scrutiny under the First Amendment," the court said." https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/youtube-1st-amendment-ruling.pdf https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/youtu...
- all2 6y ago
  > you would not call facts "bad" But we do. Any facts that cast certain religions (but not others!), or certain lifestyle choices (but not others!) in a bad light are considered _____-ophobic. Bad. Facts are routinely politicized and made out to be evil. > Censorship is just admitting that you dislike the ideas but cannot argue them down with reason This is true. And this is why it is so hard to have an honest debate. Many people in the United States (perhaps elsewhere?) think with their feelings, and not facts or reason. The videos of people screaming over the top of presenters on college campuses are case-in-point. The world as a whole is marching towards the cudgel. Hate speech laws are a manifestation of this. What remains is the removal of an individual's right to defend their life. After that we have tyranny.

Ok I'll bite: how is "you are free say what you want but you may have to face a firing squad" and different in experience to "you cannot say any of these things, if you do you will face a firing squad" ? The whole POINT of 'free speech' is that there are no consequences. (And no you shouldn't be allowed to shout 'fire' in a theatre).

throwanem 6y ago
Your last two statements contradict one another, but also make clear that you recognize your appeal to absurdity for what it is. Do you think no one else will?
- pinkfoot 6y ago
  Er, because I am not a supporter of unfettered free speech. But I also wont bend the definition either. That’s where the problems start.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Ok I'll bite: how is "you are free say what you want but you may have to face a firing squad" That's not the consequence here. The consequence is “other private parties might choose not to relay your speech or continue association with you, exercising their own rights to free speech and association.” Me not allowing you to use my resources to magnify the reach of your message isn't analogous to the state subjecting you to capital punishment. > The whole POINT of 'free speech' is that there are no consequences. No, the whole point is that the state doesn't have their thumb on the scale, allowing ideas to succeed or fail by their ability, or not, to attract support from private actors. Legislation in which the state intervenes to prevent private consequences through the exercise of free speech are not only on their face contrary to free speech, but sabotage the operation of the marketplace of ideas.
anthony_romeo 6y ago
Does Twitter have firing squads?

lordlimecat 6y ago

The definition of free speech that stormfront likes is also the one that the supreme court has upheld and that is necessary for a thriving marketplace of ideas. Bad, ignorant, hateful ideas are bad because they are wrong; if they were true, you would not call facts "bad". That being the case, the correct response is to defeat them with truth-- not censorship, whether state or privately enacted. Censorship is just admitting that you dislike the ideas but cannot argue them down with reason and are resorting to the cudgel.

magicalist 6y ago
> also the one that the supreme court has upheld the Supreme Court certainly has not upheld compelled speech. And internet theories about private services as de facto public forums continue to be defeated in court (PragerU v Google being the most recent example).
- Wistar 6y ago
  See also the recent Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals decision on whether or not free speech applies on a private platform (spoiler: it doesn't). "Despite YouTube's ubiquity and its role as a public-facing platform, it remains a private forum, not a public forum subject to judicial scrutiny under the First Amendment," the court said." https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/youtube-1st-amendment-ruling.pdf https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/youtu...
all2 6y ago
> you would not call facts "bad" But we do. Any facts that cast certain religions (but not others!), or certain lifestyle choices (but not others!) in a bad light are considered _____-ophobic. Bad. Facts are routinely politicized and made out to be evil. > Censorship is just admitting that you dislike the ideas but cannot argue them down with reason This is true. And this is why it is so hard to have an honest debate. Many people in the United States (perhaps elsewhere?) think with their feelings, and not facts or reason. The videos of people screaming over the top of presenters on college campuses are case-in-point. The world as a whole is marching towards the cudgel. Hate speech laws are a manifestation of this. What remains is the removal of an individual's right to defend their life. After that we have tyranny.